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Galin · 03-20-2014, 10:39 PM

But within this conception Olorin isn't arriving as an Istar, complete with and Istar's function and duties, here.

'That Olórin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this.'

So why not visit Nerwen and so on, as Olorin, and for his own [and Yavanna's] reasons. The collective Istari mission to combat Sauron is in the future from this perspective.

Also, I'm not sure Olorin the Maia had certainly known Galadriel in Aman, as a friend.

It's possible, and certainly possible that he knew of her obviously, but no former friendship is stated that I'm aware of, and the suggestion that Olorin walked among Elves unseen, or as one of them [blending into the background? or becoming friendly with the Elves, or some Elves?], doesn't exactly necessarily speak to making friends with every, even notable Elf.

Not that you said otherwise.

I can see the thinking here, I mean it's Galadriel, but it's one of those things which is unsaid as far as I know.

Ivriniel · 03-21-2014, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galin

But within this conception Olorin isn't arriving as an Istar, complete with and Istar's function and duties, here.

hang on

am home now, lemme eat my dinner and hava nutha read of the text....back soon

William Cloud Hicklin · 03-21-2014, 07:01 AM

Let's not forget that the incarnate bodies of the Istari were, as much as anything, disguises. Only Cirdan knew what they were or whence they came, at least at first. Even when Elrond and Galadriel picked up on it, as I'm sure eventually they did, they still wouldn't have been, like, "Hey, Olorin! Thought it was you. Great costume, dude." Maiar in their native form could assume any shape they liked, and we have seen that Olorin preferred to be incognito when dealing with the Elves.

Galin · 03-21-2014, 07:02 AM

While you're reading I'll add: the timing in the essay is a bit unclear imy opinion, unless you or somone can clarify it better. Galadriel is in Greenwood, and this possibly goes hand in hand with the first edition passage that Celeborn, in the Second Age, established a realm in the South of Greenwood [later revised].

The 'conception' is thus the interpretation that we have Olorin here, not Gandalf as an Istar, and this would be well before the collective choosing of the Istari and so on. And Olorin gives the Elessar stone with mention of Yavanna. I don't recall any indication here [necessarily] of an Istari-related mission...

... but what we do have is what I and others have wondered about already: a Galadriel who desires flowers and grass that do not die, and, considering that she has one of the Three Great Rings of preservation power when the Istari appear, this does not easily fall in line with a time after the Istari arrived in Middle-earth.

In other words the conception is not explicitly noted by Tolkien, but for me it does not seem awkward, especially given my quote from JRRT about Olorin visiting folk in Middle-earth [outside of and before the Istari mission]...

... and no more awkward than Melian coming to Middle-earth in a physical form, for example. And if one objects to Tolkien's conception from WPP about the Valar and Maiar visting Middle-earth, we could even 'invent' a ship for Olorin in this period.

William Cloud Hicklin · 03-21-2014, 07:08 AM

OKay, it sort of works-- and while we're speculatin' we could recall that one version of the Glorfindel story has him arriving in the 2d age, and a note raises the possibility of a Numenorean ship.... there was after all sea-traffic from Eressea to Numenor. So could not Olorin-in-disguise have hitched a ride? (The Elessar essay implies, I think, that until Gandalf/Olorin invoked Yavanna, Galadriel didn't know where he came from)

Galin · 03-21-2014, 07:17 AM

Good points WCH.

I think Tolkien only had a problem with Goldenlocks returning after Numenor fell, as that would put a seeming lot of emphasis on his return -- that is, if the Valar thought it so important that he should return after the removal of Aman [although in Glorfindel I Tolkien mused that Glorfindel returned as a companion to Gandalf].

The Istari were important enough of course. But in any case, before the removal of Aman one could take ship, and yes Olorin would not be in the physical guise of the old sage later called Mithrandir.

03-20-2014, 10:39 PM	#1
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	But within this conception Olorin isn't arriving as an Istar, complete with and Istar's function and duties, here. 'That Olórin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this.' So why not visit Nerwen and so on, as Olorin, and for his own [and Yavanna's] reasons. The collective Istari mission to combat Sauron is in the future from this perspective. Also, I'm not sure Olorin the Maia had certainly known Galadriel in Aman, as a friend. It's possible, and certainly possible that he knew of her obviously, but no former friendship is stated that I'm aware of, and the suggestion that Olorin walked among Elves unseen, or as one of them [blending into the background? or becoming friendly with the Elves, or some Elves?], doesn't exactly necessarily speak to making friends with every, even notable Elf. Not that you said otherwise. I can see the thinking here, I mean it's Galadriel, but it's one of those things which is unsaid as far as I know. Last edited by Galin; 03-20-2014 at 11:01 PM.

03-21-2014, 07:01 AM	#3
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Let's not forget that the incarnate bodies of the Istari were, as much as anything, disguises. Only Cirdan knew what they were or whence they came, at least at first. Even when Elrond and Galadriel picked up on it, as I'm sure eventually they did, they still wouldn't have been, like, "Hey, Olorin! Thought it was you. Great costume, dude." Maiar in their native form could assume any shape they liked, and we have seen that Olorin preferred to be incognito when dealing with the Elves. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

03-21-2014, 07:02 AM	#4
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	While you're reading I'll add: the timing in the essay is a bit unclear imy opinion, unless you or somone can clarify it better. Galadriel is in Greenwood, and this possibly goes hand in hand with the first edition passage that Celeborn, in the Second Age, established a realm in the South of Greenwood [later revised]. The 'conception' is thus the interpretation that we have Olorin here, not Gandalf as an Istar, and this would be well before the collective choosing of the Istari and so on. And Olorin gives the Elessar stone with mention of Yavanna. I don't recall any indication here [necessarily] of an Istari-related mission... ... but what we do have is what I and others have wondered about already: a Galadriel who desires flowers and grass that do not die, and, considering that she has one of the Three Great Rings of preservation power when the Istari appear, this does not easily fall in line with a time after the Istari arrived in Middle-earth. In other words the conception is not explicitly noted by Tolkien, but for me it does not seem awkward, especially given my quote from JRRT about Olorin visiting folk in Middle-earth [outside of and before the Istari mission]... ... and no more awkward than Melian coming to Middle-earth in a physical form, for example. And if one objects to Tolkien's conception from WPP about the Valar and Maiar visting Middle-earth, we could even 'invent' a ship for Olorin in this period. Last edited by Galin; 03-21-2014 at 07:09 AM.

03-21-2014, 07:08 AM	#5
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	OKay, it sort of works-- and while we're speculatin' we could recall that one version of the Glorfindel story has him arriving in the 2d age, and a note raises the possibility of a Numenorean ship.... there was after all sea-traffic from Eressea to Numenor. So could not Olorin-in-disguise have hitched a ride? (The Elessar essay implies, I think, that until Gandalf/Olorin invoked Yavanna, Galadriel didn't know where he came from) __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

03-21-2014, 07:17 AM	#6
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	Good points WCH. I think Tolkien only had a problem with Goldenlocks returning after Numenor fell, as that would put a seeming lot of emphasis on his return -- that is, if the Valar thought it so important that he should return after the removal of Aman [although in Glorfindel I Tolkien mused that Glorfindel returned as a companion to Gandalf]. The Istari were important enough of course. But in any case, before the removal of Aman one could take ship, and yes Olorin would not be in the physical guise of the old sage later called Mithrandir.