the elessar

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Indeed, which is why I think the powers of Nenya and the Elessar might have some differences. Perhaps Galadriel used the latter to augment the former.

But that still misses the main question in my opinion: why does Galadriel, before even knowing that the Elessar is with Olorin, desire preservation power if she can employ Nenya, as she certainly does in the Third Age? The Three were already powerful, and made for preservation.

That's the question that goes away if she cannot employ Nenya at all because it's too early, with Olorin but not 'Gandalf'.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galin

But that still misses the main question in my opinion: why does Galadriel, before even knowing that the Elessar is with Olorin, desire preservation power if she can employ Nenya, as she certainly does in the Third Age?

That's the question that goes away if she cannot employ Nenya at all because it's too early, with Olorin but not 'Gandalf'.

Was it the case that her conversation with Olorin preceded the peak in assay of the Gwaith-i-Mirdain's lore? I took UFT (I don't have it here atm, but I can check again), on this point (about the Elessar/with Olorin version), to be a conversation with Olorin sometime before she had Nenya.

However -- and here's the timing thing again -- as we know, Cirdan gave Gandalf a Ring. So, I need to check UFT again, but it seemed to me that in that first version of the Elessar, Tolkien had not had Nenya on Galadriel's finger (which again goes to what I read in Galin's earliest post, upstream. He noted that this meant a 'visit from Olorin to his mate, Alatariel (as he would have known her, not as Galadriel), *before* he was Istari-ified.....

awkward, but necessary to resolve the problem....

[Galin]

Well that's the point in question: if it's Gandalf the Istar it's about 1,000 years into the Third Age, or later... but Nerwende Artanis -- with [in theory] Nenya on her finger -- desires unfading grass, for example? She says this to Olorin before he reveals he has the Elessar.

I don't know why the Olorin idea is necssarily awkward though, as Tolkien himself even speaks to this Maia visiting Middle-earthers very early on, and provides the means. Unless you think the idea awkward even if it's from the uthor, I guess.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galin

Well that's the point in question: if it's Gandalf the Istar it's about 1,000 years into the Third Age, or later... but Nerwende Artanis -- with [in theory] Nenya on her finger -- desires unfading grass, for example? She says this to Olorin before he reveals he has the Elessar.

those darned elves and their lawns! they just can't stand seeing their gardens wilt in summer...

I don't know why the Olorin idea is necssarily awkward though, as Tolkien himself even speaks to this Maia visiting Middle-earthers very early on, and provides the means. Unless you think the idea awkward even if it's from the uthor, I guess.

I saw what you wrote about the emphasis on author and 'Olorin' and that meaning he was not yet istari-ified. It's awkward because of how hard lined the Tale of the Years is about the arrival of the Istari, giving the impression of 'okay, now go', and 'not before'. Add to that all the stuff about the preparatory discussions the Maia chosen had with the Valar pre-departure. Gandalf specifically says he feared Sauron and so, I think it was Manwe said that made Gandalf an even better choice. (this was not in UT, but in other books I have at hand, I can quote if you like).

The 'vibe', then *smiles* (vibe....how clearly argued Ivriniel hahaha) is about why on earth, a Maia would keep ties with ole Galadriel, some several (thousand) years, long after she took off to Middle Earth.

I know the Maia like Olorin walked, sometimes clad as Elves and sometimes as invisible spirits in the West. But? What--Olorin pops over the Middle Earth, becomes corporeal as a, what, elf? It just all feels wrong....

[Galin]

But within this conception Olorin isn't arriving as an Istar, complete with and Istar's function and duties, here.

'That Olórin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this.'

So why not visit Nerwen and so on, as Olorin, and for his own [and Yavanna's] reasons. The collective Istari mission to combat Sauron is in the future from this perspective.

Also, I'm not sure Olorin the Maia had certainly known Galadriel in Aman, as a friend.

It's possible, and certainly possible that he knew of her obviously, but no former friendship is stated that I'm aware of, and the suggestion that Olorin walked among Elves unseen, or as one of them [blending into the background? or becoming friendly with the Elves, or some Elves?], doesn't exactly necessarily speak to making friends with every, even notable Elf.

Not that you said otherwise.

I can see the thinking here, I mean it's Galadriel, but it's one of those things which is unsaid as far as I know.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galin

But within this conception Olorin isn't arriving as an Istar, complete with and Istar's function and duties, here.

hang on am home now, lemme eat my dinner and hava nutha read of the text....back soon

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Let's not forget that the incarnate bodies of the Istari were, as much as anything, disguises. Only Cirdan knew what they were or whence they came, at least at first. Even when Elrond and Galadriel picked up on it, as I'm sure eventually they did, they still wouldn't have been, like, "Hey, Olorin! Thought it was you. Great costume, dude." Maiar in their native form could assume any shape they liked, and we have seen that Olorin preferred to be incognito when dealing with the Elves.

[Galin]

While you're reading I'll add: the timing in the essay is a bit unclear imy opinion, unless you or somone can clarify it better. Galadriel is in Greenwood, and this possibly goes hand in hand with the first edition passage that Celeborn, in the Second Age, established a realm in the South of Greenwood [later revised].

The 'conception' is thus the interpretation that we have Olorin here, not Gandalf as an Istar, and this would be well before the collective choosing of the Istari and so on. And Olorin gives the Elessar stone with mention of Yavanna. I don't recall any indication here [necessarily] of an Istari-related mission...

... but what we do have is what I and others have wondered about already: a Galadriel who desires flowers and grass that do not die, and, considering that she has one of the Three Great Rings of preservation power when the Istari appear, this does not easily fall in line with a time after the Istari arrived in Middle-earth.

In other words the conception is not explicitly noted by Tolkien, but for me it does not seem awkward, especially given my quote from JRRT about Olorin visiting folk in Middle-earth [outside of and before the Istari mission]...

... and no more awkward than Melian coming to Middle-earth in a physical form, for example. And if one objects to Tolkien's conception from WPP about the Valar and Maiar visting Middle-earth, we could even 'invent' a ship for Olorin in this period.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

But that still misses the main question in my opinion: why does Galadriel, before even knowing that the Elessar is with Olorin, desire preservation power if she can employ Nenya, as she certainly does in the Third Age? The Three were already powerful, and made for preservation.

That's the question that goes away if she cannot employ Nenya at all because it's too early, with Olorin but not 'Gandalf'.

Perhaps Galadriel was reluctant to use Nenya because of uncertainty regarding the One. The Wise knew only that Isildur had been traveling to Rivendell with it, when he, and it, were lost. Although it had been around 1000 years, maybe she wanted some means of healing that did not involve any connection to the One Ring.

The idea of Olórin coming to Middle-earth before the Third Age just doesn't sit well with me. Like I said, the coming of the Istari was such a major event in Middle-earth history that it seems like a cheat of sorts for Gandalf to just pop over the Sea to hand over something to an Elf.

[Galin]

Appendix B notes:

The Third Age

These were the fading years of the Eldar. For long they were at peace, wielding the Three Rings while Sauron slept and the One was lost; but they attempted nothing new (...) [something about Dwarves... something about Nmenoreans] (...)

... and next we learn that around 1,000 years [a notable amount of time] 'had passed' and the arrival of the Istari is described. And in step with this: 'Yet after the fall of Sauron their power was ever at work...' Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age

Come on now Tolkien doesn't have to spell it out explicitly with respect to Nerwen.

The Elves had, in my opinion, already wielded the Three in the Second Age, and even Christopher Tolkien rather simply notes that Galadriel would have to await the fall of Sorehead, in a comment about the possibility of her using Nenya after the Ring Ruse was discovered.

Although subjective of course, I think the possibility you raise about Galadriel is more strained than Olorin visting Middle-earth. Again everyone seems to accept Melian for instance, or some of the Valar.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

Although subjective of course, I think the possibility you raise about Galadriel is more strained than Olorin visting Middle-earth. Again everyone seems to accept Melian for instance, or some of the Valar.

Well, at the end of the day this looks like a subject with some degree of ambiguity (shocking for Tolkien, I know). I'm going with the Celebrimbor option, cos' that's just the way I roll.

[Ivriniel]

okay I've hadda look at date stuff (which is headache material - it's so fiddly and akin to grating one's skin off with a cheese grater )

Tale of the Years

• Ost-in-Edhil founded in 750
  Around 1350 to 1400, Galadriel deposed by the Gwaith-i-Mirdain and departs to Lorinand
  Sauron departs the Ost-in-Edhil, 1500, after the Mirdain begin the making of the Rings of Power
  Sauron invades Eriador 1695, sacks the House of the Mirdain, seizes the Nine, tortures Celebrimbor (captured defending the House) to ascertain the location of the Rings of Power. It seems Celebrimbor divulged the location of the Seven [but maybe not, and possibly Durin the ? was gifted with one some time earlier)
  Tar Minastir, delayed 5 years, sends a great navy, just in nick of time, to assist Gil Galad, desperately holding Lhun, after Eriador sacked and run over.
  Vinaylonde of Tar-Aldarion after named Lond Daer, mouth of Gwathlo (Greyflood)
  Istari Arrive in Middle Earth around [B]1000 TA

Analysis

Olorin was not an Istari, NOT clad, irreversibly in the body of an aging 'man' (not Istari-fied) by the time of the debate we're having about UT and, the version of the Elessar where Galadriel and Olorin are munching on Lembas and Miruvor in Lorinand.

Lorinand, we think, was a realm that extended onto either side of the Anduin, and subsumed the location of the Dol Guldur as well as what came to be known as Laurelindorenan.

Annatar convinced the Mirdain to take control of the Ost-In-Edhil, around 1300 to 1400 SA, some thousand/s of years before the arrival of the Istari. It was around then, it seems, that Galadriel gathered the Nandorin and Silvan remnant who resided in those woods (Lorinand) and around the Gwathlo, and Amroth regions, where also was Edhellond, the other major Elven harbour. She, and other of her Noldor buddies Sindarised the Nandor/Silvans (who to this point had no written language and did not organise themselves into settlements/cities). Add here stuff about Dol Amroth, Elfy bloodlines, Imrahil, Ivriniel and Nimrodel. Amroth and all that.

[Ivriniel]

So....by this account (for version I of the deliberately dual text), Olorin was a pre-Istari visitor bearing a returned gift by the Grace of Yavanna. Galadriel was a jaded, cross, Elf, tossed out of the Ost-In-Edhil, by naughty Elfs, who spent too much time, hangin' out with Annatar the resident bad boi.

The Olorin-out-of-the-West is a theoretical possibility.

However, I found another reason to presuppose Version 1 is not the "one only the wise knew" (UT put it that way). UT notes that The Elessar made a region in Beleriand heal (like Vilya did) with Enerdhil's jewell, before it passed into the West. The Silmarillion then goes onto apply a Silmaril (i.e. not the Elessar) as the basis for this 'healing' before it left Beleriand.

Further, in Version II, we're told the second Elessar had less joo joo. The first Elessar could make a whole region grow Valinorish (ie. was Vilya-ish). The second Elessar, though "more subtle" and "clearer" than the first, could not imprison light from the sun when she was 'young'. Morgoth's influence from the Void.

I didn't see Aragorn's Elessar doin' very much joo joo and so, this places it more as the Celebrimbor/Feanorean jewel.

[Galin]

•Ost-in-Edhil founded in 750: Around 1350 to 1400, Galadriel deposed by the Gwaith-i-Mirdain and departs to Lorinand

Well, apologies but I must get external with respect to this idea as a given

This ousting of Galadriel comes from a text called Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales, which wasn't finished by JRRT [never mind not being published by him], and contains certain ideas that were revised later [Amroth as Galadriel's son, for instance] and others that in my opinion were arguably abandoned or revised...

... like [again in my opinion] Galadriel as co-founder and co-ruler of Eregion. And thus [if so] there was/would be no need for her to be ousted from power at this point.

Also, Christopher Tolkien thinks The Elessar was probably written at about the same time as Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, but what came first, this chicken or this egg? And if The Elessar came first, how do we know the circumstances that were imagined behind Galadriel residing in Greenwood when Olorin visited? Christopher Tolkien states that possibly the reference to Galadriel living in Greenwood is related to the refrence in the first edition, in the tale of years of the Second Age, Appendix B:

'... many of the Sindar passed eastward and established realms in the forest far away. The chief of these were Thranduil in the North of Greenwood the Great, and Celeborn in the South of the forest.'

And while much later in the 1960s Tolkien would revise this, for all we know this was why Galadriel, in The Elessar, was living in Greenwood, not that she was imagined as being forced there by Celebrimbor as in CG&C.

There are passages of possible interest with respect to whether or not Tolkien revised the idea of Galadriel as being an ousted ruler in Eregion, considering too, that even Christopher Tolkien raised the question of why, if Galadriel saw through Annatar, she, as a co-ruler with Celeborn in this text, allowed Annatar to remain. These are published in Tolkien's Words, Phrases And Passages, in Parma Eldalamberon:

'... of Angband, many of the Noldor and Sindar went eastwards into Eriador and beyond (Galadriel and Celeborn were the chief examples; but originally the settlement at Eregion under Celebrimbor was also very important.)' entry Yrch

'Also it existed long before Galadriel's coming there -- it was originally ruled by Nandorin princes, and Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither after downfall of Eregion.' entry Lothlorien

'... simply Sindarin of Beleriand, brought in by Galadriel and Celeborn, and their followers, who after the destruction of Eregion passed through Moria and established their realm on the east side of the...' entry Sindarin

And when Tolkien revised The Return of the King, for the second edition of The Lord of the Rings, he 'merely' added that Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion (with no reason to think he ruled after anyone), and a Feanorean.

I think that Celebrimbor's change to a Feanorean made him ruler of Eregion from the start, and the former concept of Galadriel being ousted to Lindorinand had vanished [along with the question raised by CJRT]. And if I recall correctly, it was Nerwende who had introduced her son to Lindorinand in the earlier concept, thus giving her a measure of 'family ties' to a place where she could later flee to with the revolt of the Mirdain...

... but again, Amroth as Galadriel's son was certainly abandoned according to Christopher Tolkien, and taken together with the [arguble at least] implication of the descriptions from WPP, what JRRT published about Celebrimbor in the 1960s as well, personally I think this notion was later abandoned.

[Ivriniel]

Hi there Galin, how r u?

Originally Posted by Galin

Well, apologies but I must get external with respect to this idea as a given

This ousting of Galadriel comes from a text called Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales, which wasn't finished by JRRT [never mind not being published by him], and contains certain ideas that were revised later [Amroth as Galadriel's son, for instance] and others that in my opinion were arguably abandoned or revised...

Yes. But.

[Some of the] materials about Galadriel were amongst the last JRRT worked on. Chris also notes in UT that his dad wrote some stuff about Galadriel a month before his death. Seems to me that meant that Tolkien had some new thoughts about Galadriel that were missed by older materials. For example, the stuff he wrote a month before his death was the materials quarantining her from responsibility of Feanor's lead on the kinslaying, her and Celeborn (Teleporno) fighting valiantly with the Teleri (though Celeborn's lineage, elsewhere places him as a descendent of Elmo, bro to Elwe and Olwe, and this lineage links Dior, by marriage, to Elmo's brood, and so to Elwing, meaning Celebrian and Celeborn were related to Aragron (Elros) and also Arwen (Elrond). So, Gala and Celeb snatch a Telerin boat, and wander off to Middle Earth, roped in to the Ban thing, by implication, but arrived ahead of her "...unfriends forever..." Feanor (I had to say, I always chuckle when I re-read that stuff about Galadriel snubbing relative Feanor, and so the two were "unfriends forever".

Lineage matters shunted sideways, Chris notes that Galadriel's stuff is amongst the latest emendations to other materials and in fact, post dates LotR. There is the implication that Amroth is Galadriel's son (as you noted), for example, which post dates LotR.

... like [again in my opinion] Galadriel as co-founder and co-ruler of Eregion. And thus [if so] there was/would be no need for her to be ousted from power at this point.

On this point about Galariel's and Celeborn's migration out of Beleriand, end of FA:

Galadriel and Celeborn had in their company a Noldorin craftsman named Celebrimbor. [He is here said to have been one of the survivors of Gondolin, who had been among Turgon's greatest artificers; but the text is emended to the later story that made him a descendant of Feanor, as is mentioned in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings …and more fully detailed in the Silmarillion (pp. 176, 276" (p. 235, Unfinished Tales, 1980, Allen & Unwen , Hardback Ed)

That quote more goes to why version I of the Elessar, Enerdhil and all that don't square well with later emendations.

Chris notes that Galadriel and Celeborn were not mentioned in founding of Ost-In-Edhil but--the (late) essay on Galadriel and Celeborn states

Although it is not stated that Galadriel was present when Annatar arrived (1200), "He perceived at once that Galadriel would be his chief adversary and obstacle, and he endeavoured therefore to placate her, bearing her score with outward patience and courtesy" (p. 237) and Sauron "…worked in secret, unknown to Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion" (p. 237) "So great became his hold on the Mirdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion" (p. 237) between 1350 and 1400 "Galadriel thereupon left eregion and passed through Khazad-dum to Lorinand, taking with her Amroth and Celebrian" (p. 237)

This places Galadriel and Celebron in the fray and how the revolt against them was orchestrated.

Bad boi Annatar comes in and stirs the pot around 1200 then

But in the meantime the power of Galadriel and Celeborn had grown, and Galadriel, assisted in this by her friendship with the Dwarves of Moria, had come into contact with the Nandorin realm of Lorinand on the other side of the Misty Mountains (p. 236)

So, the founding of Laurelindorenan and all that appears to have happened some time after 1200 and before 1695 SA (Because it was Gil Galad that gives her Mallorn seeds, gifted to him from Numenor [The seeds wouldn't grow in Lindon], this also implies a second-age-ish concept for the founding of Lorien, after Lorinand). I note that materials about Amroth and Nimrodel place Amroth as ruler of Lorien until -- much later -- (I have a headache ) around 3434, SA! Man--that's like really off tap Tolkien--we are talking a discrepancy of about 1000 years!!!!

Also, Christopher Tolkien thinks The Elessar was probably written at about the same time as Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn,

Yes

... but what came first, this chicken or this egg? And if The Elessar came first, how do we know the circumstances that were imagined behind Galadriel residing in Greenwood when Olorin visited? Christopher Tolkien states that possibly the reference to Galadriel living in Greenwood is related to the refrence in the first edition, in the tale of years of the Second Age, Appendix B:

My point is more that Olorin-out-of-the-West, munching on Lembas and sipping Miruvor with Galadriel [a cross, Elf, booted out from the Ost-In-Edhil] in Lorinand appears to have occurred between 1200 and 1695 SA. Given the Istari rocked in 1000 TA, this implies the Olorin option as a pre-Istari visitor is theoretically possible. In that version, he comes chatting to Alatariel.

Did he bear the Elessar? (resuming focus on the two in-text, versions, deliberately divergent where "...only the wise..." (UT) know which is true.

A 'bottom line' synopsis with five points:

1. the joo joo argument. Elessar I was Nenya-ish, and greened an area in Beleriand on the coast, before passing West over sea.
2. But, Silmarillion replaces that with the effects of a Silmaril.
3. In any case, in story two, Celebrimbor (I think it's reasonably clear as he the Feanorean, not the jewel smith of Gondolin) makes a second. This jewel is 'clearer' and more 'subtle' but less powerful. Morgoth's influence on the Sun from the Void.
4. Aragorn's Elessar doesn't make Valinorish things happen in a region. It's power is limited. Thus
5. This makes Olorin's gift to Galadriel less likely.

I think that Celebrimbor's change to a Feanorean made him ruler of Eregion from the start, and the former concept of Galadriel being ousted to Lindorinand had vanished [along with the question raised by CJRT]. And if I recall correctly, it was Nerwende who had introduced her son to Lindorinand in the earlier concept, thus giving her a measure of 'family ties' to a place where she could later flee to with the revolt of the Mirdain...

... but again, Amroth as Galadriel's son was certainly abandoned according to Christopher Tolkien, and taken together with the [arguble at least] implication of the descriptions from WPP, what JRRT published about Celebrimbor in the 1960s as well, personally I think this notion was later abandoned.

Not sure I agree. Though, points 1 to 5 don't draw heavily on which way I go with this last bit.