the elessar

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

So, I'm thinking that Tolkien was possibly thinking that Olórin visited Galadriel here, before the Third Age...

A question I would have, is how did he get there, if before the other Istari?
In the UT essay The Istari, it tells that upon Gandalf's first meeting with Círdan when disembarking at Mithlond, the latter

....divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.

If Gandalf had arrived there before, that would not have been the "first meeting" with Círdan, and I get the idea that no ship from the West could have come there without his knowledge.
I suppose Olórin could have "flown" disembodied over the Sea, as Sauron did from the wreck of Númenor, but that seems like a very long shot.

Originally Posted by Galin;689993... otherwise, I'm back to [if this is Gandalf the Istar and thus well into the Third Age

: why would Galadriel consider employing the Elessar stone when she can already use Nenya? Not that we can't think of a reason, perhaps, but so far it seems easier [for me] to think Tolkien imagined an earlier visit with the stone.

Or, there's the other tale, that Celebrimbor made it for Galadriel. No conflict about Nenya there.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

A question I would have, is how did he get there, if before the other Istari? In the UT essay The Istari, it tells that upon Gandalf's first meeting with Círdan when disembarking at Mithlond, the latter (...) I suppose Olórin could have "flown" disembodied over the Sea, as Sauron did from the wreck of Númenor, but that seems like a very long shot.

In the entry for the base PHAN- [Words, Phrases And Passages, Parma Eldalamberon] it's said:

'But it is often mentioned in the legends that certain of the Valar, and occasionally of the Maiar, 'passed over the Sea', and appeared in Middle-earth. (Notably Orome, Ulmo, and Yavanna) The Valar and Maiar were essentially 'spirits', according to Elvish tradition given before the making of Ea. They could go where they willed, that is could be present at once at any point in Ea where they desired to be.*

*subject only to special limitations voluntarily taken upon themselves or decreed by Eru. (...)

That 'footnote' is much longer, but I don't recall anything that notably limits the idea here, keeping Melian in mind for example, who passed to Middle-earth and back, seemingly. I suppose one could argue that Tolkien ultimately rejected this too, since an arguably abbreviated [by comparison] explanation of the fanar of the Valar was published in The Road Goes Ever On, but the lack might also be due to brevity there. Hard to say.

Or, there's the other tale, that Celebrimbor made it for Galadriel. No conflict about Nenya there.

Heh, well yes, and formerly I thought Tolkien was perhaps purposely making 'version A' questionable by describing this scenario, but even if so it remains problematic within its own version. That is, 'version A' is still internal, it's intended to be an in story variation, and in that context I think it's a rather notable point of chronology -- which fades away however, if Olorin passed over Sea...

... like Melian did