the elessar

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

Hmm, my problem with these is that Galadriel appears to desire preservation power in the first place, and then Olorin offers her the stone.

Indeed, which is why I think the powers of Nenya and the Elessar might have some differences. Perhaps Galadriel used the latter to augment the former.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Indeed, which is why I think the powers of Nenya and the Elessar might have some differences. Perhaps Galadriel used the latter to augment the former.

But that still misses the main question in my opinion: why does Galadriel, before even knowing that the Elessar is with Olorin, desire preservation power if she can employ Nenya, as she certainly does in the Third Age? The Three were already powerful, and made for preservation.

That's the question that goes away if she cannot employ Nenya at all because it's too early, with Olorin but not 'Gandalf'.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galin

But that still misses the main question in my opinion: why does Galadriel, before even knowing that the Elessar is with Olorin, desire preservation power if she can employ Nenya, as she certainly does in the Third Age?

That's the question that goes away if she cannot employ Nenya at all because it's too early, with Olorin but not 'Gandalf'.

Was it the case that her conversation with Olorin preceded the peak in assay of the Gwaith-i-Mirdain's lore? I took UFT (I don't have it here atm, but I can check again), on this point (about the Elessar/with Olorin version), to be a conversation with Olorin sometime before she had Nenya.

However -- and here's the timing thing again -- as we know, Cirdan gave Gandalf a Ring. So, I need to check UFT again, but it seemed to me that in that first version of the Elessar, Tolkien had not had Nenya on Galadriel's finger (which again goes to what I read in Galin's earliest post, upstream. He noted that this meant a 'visit from Olorin to his mate, Alatariel (as he would have known her, not as Galadriel), *before* he was Istari-ified.....

awkward, but necessary to resolve the problem....

[Galin]

Well that's the point in question: if it's Gandalf the Istar it's about 1,000 years into the Third Age, or later... but Nerwende Artanis -- with [in theory] Nenya on her finger -- desires unfading grass, for example? She says this to Olorin before he reveals he has the Elessar.

I don't know why the Olorin idea is necssarily awkward though, as Tolkien himself even speaks to this Maia visiting Middle-earthers very early on, and provides the means. Unless you think the idea awkward even if it's from the uthor, I guess.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galin

Well that's the point in question: if it's Gandalf the Istar it's about 1,000 years into the Third Age, or later... but Nerwende Artanis -- with [in theory] Nenya on her finger -- desires unfading grass, for example? She says this to Olorin before he reveals he has the Elessar.

those darned elves and their lawns! they just can't stand seeing their gardens wilt in summer...

I don't know why the Olorin idea is necssarily awkward though, as Tolkien himself even speaks to this Maia visiting Middle-earthers very early on, and provides the means. Unless you think the idea awkward even if it's from the uthor, I guess.

I saw what you wrote about the emphasis on author and 'Olorin' and that meaning he was not yet istari-ified. It's awkward because of how hard lined the Tale of the Years is about the arrival of the Istari, giving the impression of 'okay, now go', and 'not before'. Add to that all the stuff about the preparatory discussions the Maia chosen had with the Valar pre-departure. Gandalf specifically says he feared Sauron and so, I think it was Manwe said that made Gandalf an even better choice. (this was not in UT, but in other books I have at hand, I can quote if you like).

The 'vibe', then *smiles* (vibe....how clearly argued Ivriniel hahaha) is about why on earth, a Maia would keep ties with ole Galadriel, some several (thousand) years, long after she took off to Middle Earth.

I know the Maia like Olorin walked, sometimes clad as Elves and sometimes as invisible spirits in the West. But? What--Olorin pops over the Middle Earth, becomes corporeal as a, what, elf? It just all feels wrong....

[Galin]

But within this conception Olorin isn't arriving as an Istar, complete with and Istar's function and duties, here.

'That Olórin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this.'

So why not visit Nerwen and so on, as Olorin, and for his own [and Yavanna's] reasons. The collective Istari mission to combat Sauron is in the future from this perspective.

Also, I'm not sure Olorin the Maia had certainly known Galadriel in Aman, as a friend.

It's possible, and certainly possible that he knew of her obviously, but no former friendship is stated that I'm aware of, and the suggestion that Olorin walked among Elves unseen, or as one of them [blending into the background? or becoming friendly with the Elves, or some Elves?], doesn't exactly necessarily speak to making friends with every, even notable Elf.

Not that you said otherwise.

I can see the thinking here, I mean it's Galadriel, but it's one of those things which is unsaid as far as I know.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galin

But within this conception Olorin isn't arriving as an Istar, complete with and Istar's function and duties, here.

hang on am home now, lemme eat my dinner and hava nutha read of the text....back soon

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

But that still misses the main question in my opinion: why does Galadriel, before even knowing that the Elessar is with Olorin, desire preservation power if she can employ Nenya, as she certainly does in the Third Age? The Three were already powerful, and made for preservation.

That's the question that goes away if she cannot employ Nenya at all because it's too early, with Olorin but not 'Gandalf'.

Perhaps Galadriel was reluctant to use Nenya because of uncertainty regarding the One. The Wise knew only that Isildur had been traveling to Rivendell with it, when he, and it, were lost. Although it had been around 1000 years, maybe she wanted some means of healing that did not involve any connection to the One Ring.

The idea of Olórin coming to Middle-earth before the Third Age just doesn't sit well with me. Like I said, the coming of the Istari was such a major event in Middle-earth history that it seems like a cheat of sorts for Gandalf to just pop over the Sea to hand over something to an Elf.

[Galin]

Appendix B notes:

The Third Age

These were the fading years of the Eldar. For long they were at peace, wielding the Three Rings while Sauron slept and the One was lost; but they attempted nothing new (...) [something about Dwarves... something about Nmenoreans] (...)

... and next we learn that around 1,000 years [a notable amount of time] 'had passed' and the arrival of the Istari is described. And in step with this: 'Yet after the fall of Sauron their power was ever at work...' Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age

Come on now Tolkien doesn't have to spell it out explicitly with respect to Nerwen.

The Elves had, in my opinion, already wielded the Three in the Second Age, and even Christopher Tolkien rather simply notes that Galadriel would have to await the fall of Sorehead, in a comment about the possibility of her using Nenya after the Ring Ruse was discovered.

Although subjective of course, I think the possibility you raise about Galadriel is more strained than Olorin visting Middle-earth. Again everyone seems to accept Melian for instance, or some of the Valar.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

Although subjective of course, I think the possibility you raise about Galadriel is more strained than Olorin visting Middle-earth. Again everyone seems to accept Melian for instance, or some of the Valar.

Well, at the end of the day this looks like a subject with some degree of ambiguity (shocking for Tolkien, I know). I'm going with the Celebrimbor option, cos' that's just the way I roll.

[Ivriniel]

okay I've hadda look at date stuff (which is headache material - it's so fiddly and akin to grating one's skin off with a cheese grater )

Tale of the Years

• Ost-in-Edhil founded in 750
  Around 1350 to 1400, Galadriel deposed by the Gwaith-i-Mirdain and departs to Lorinand
  Sauron departs the Ost-in-Edhil, 1500, after the Mirdain begin the making of the Rings of Power
  Sauron invades Eriador 1695, sacks the House of the Mirdain, seizes the Nine, tortures Celebrimbor (captured defending the House) to ascertain the location of the Rings of Power. It seems Celebrimbor divulged the location of the Seven [but maybe not, and possibly Durin the ? was gifted with one some time earlier)
  Tar Minastir, delayed 5 years, sends a great navy, just in nick of time, to assist Gil Galad, desperately holding Lhun, after Eriador sacked and run over.
  Vinaylonde of Tar-Aldarion after named Lond Daer, mouth of Gwathlo (Greyflood)
  Istari Arrive in Middle Earth around [B]1000 TA

Analysis

Olorin was not an Istari, NOT clad, irreversibly in the body of an aging 'man' (not Istari-fied) by the time of the debate we're having about UT and, the version of the Elessar where Galadriel and Olorin are munching on Lembas and Miruvor in Lorinand.

Lorinand, we think, was a realm that extended onto either side of the Anduin, and subsumed the location of the Dol Guldur as well as what came to be known as Laurelindorenan.

Annatar convinced the Mirdain to take control of the Ost-In-Edhil, around 1300 to 1400 SA, some thousand/s of years before the arrival of the Istari. It was around then, it seems, that Galadriel gathered the Nandorin and Silvan remnant who resided in those woods (Lorinand) and around the Gwathlo, and Amroth regions, where also was Edhellond, the other major Elven harbour. She, and other of her Noldor buddies Sindarised the Nandor/Silvans (who to this point had no written language and did not organise themselves into settlements/cities). Add here stuff about Dol Amroth, Elfy bloodlines, Imrahil, Ivriniel and Nimrodel. Amroth and all that.

[Ivriniel]

So....by this account (for version I of the deliberately dual text), Olorin was a pre-Istari visitor bearing a returned gift by the Grace of Yavanna. Galadriel was a jaded, cross, Elf, tossed out of the Ost-In-Edhil, by naughty Elfs, who spent too much time, hangin' out with Annatar the resident bad boi.

The Olorin-out-of-the-West is a theoretical possibility.

However, I found another reason to presuppose Version 1 is not the "one only the wise knew" (UT put it that way). UT notes that The Elessar made a region in Beleriand heal (like Vilya did) with Enerdhil's jewell, before it passed into the West. The Silmarillion then goes onto apply a Silmaril (i.e. not the Elessar) as the basis for this 'healing' before it left Beleriand.

Further, in Version II, we're told the second Elessar had less joo joo. The first Elessar could make a whole region grow Valinorish (ie. was Vilya-ish). The second Elessar, though "more subtle" and "clearer" than the first, could not imprison light from the sun when she was 'young'. Morgoth's influence from the Void.

I didn't see Aragorn's Elessar doin' very much joo joo and so, this places it more as the Celebrimbor/Feanorean jewel.

[Galin]

•Ost-in-Edhil founded in 750: Around 1350 to 1400, Galadriel deposed by the Gwaith-i-Mirdain and departs to Lorinand

Well, apologies but I must get external with respect to this idea as a given

This ousting of Galadriel comes from a text called Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales, which wasn't finished by JRRT [never mind not being published by him], and contains certain ideas that were revised later [Amroth as Galadriel's son, for instance] and others that in my opinion were arguably abandoned or revised...

... like [again in my opinion] Galadriel as co-founder and co-ruler of Eregion. And thus [if so] there was/would be no need for her to be ousted from power at this point.

Also, Christopher Tolkien thinks The Elessar was probably written at about the same time as Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, but what came first, this chicken or this egg? And if The Elessar came first, how do we know the circumstances that were imagined behind Galadriel residing in Greenwood when Olorin visited? Christopher Tolkien states that possibly the reference to Galadriel living in Greenwood is related to the refrence in the first edition, in the tale of years of the Second Age, Appendix B:

'... many of the Sindar passed eastward and established realms in the forest far away. The chief of these were Thranduil in the North of Greenwood the Great, and Celeborn in the South of the forest.'

And while much later in the 1960s Tolkien would revise this, for all we know this was why Galadriel, in The Elessar, was living in Greenwood, not that she was imagined as being forced there by Celebrimbor as in CG&C.

There are passages of possible interest with respect to whether or not Tolkien revised the idea of Galadriel as being an ousted ruler in Eregion, considering too, that even Christopher Tolkien raised the question of why, if Galadriel saw through Annatar, she, as a co-ruler with Celeborn in this text, allowed Annatar to remain. These are published in Tolkien's Words, Phrases And Passages, in Parma Eldalamberon:

'... of Angband, many of the Noldor and Sindar went eastwards into Eriador and beyond (Galadriel and Celeborn were the chief examples; but originally the settlement at Eregion under Celebrimbor was also very important.)' entry Yrch

'Also it existed long before Galadriel's coming there -- it was originally ruled by Nandorin princes, and Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither after downfall of Eregion.' entry Lothlorien

'... simply Sindarin of Beleriand, brought in by Galadriel and Celeborn, and their followers, who after the destruction of Eregion passed through Moria and established their realm on the east side of the...' entry Sindarin

And when Tolkien revised The Return of the King, for the second edition of The Lord of the Rings, he 'merely' added that Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion (with no reason to think he ruled after anyone), and a Feanorean.

I think that Celebrimbor's change to a Feanorean made him ruler of Eregion from the start, and the former concept of Galadriel being ousted to Lindorinand had vanished [along with the question raised by CJRT]. And if I recall correctly, it was Nerwende who had introduced her son to Lindorinand in the earlier concept, thus giving her a measure of 'family ties' to a place where she could later flee to with the revolt of the Mirdain...

... but again, Amroth as Galadriel's son was certainly abandoned according to Christopher Tolkien, and taken together with the [arguble at least] implication of the descriptions from WPP, what JRRT published about Celebrimbor in the 1960s as well, personally I think this notion was later abandoned.