the elessar

[Galin]

Well, sorry to be pedantic but do we know these two versions are not Tolkien simply changing his mind?

I have a vague memory of CJRT giving a possible explanation about how to reconcile two 'somethings' about Dol Amroth... but I'm pretty sure there [if this is the same matter], he also admits or suggests the likelihood of these being two accounts that were not necessarily both meant to be confused from a story-internal perspective.

I mean we could have more than two versions of The Elessar if we merely look at what JRRT wrote about it, but The Elessar as a text is clearly treating the variant tales as both found within the subcreated world...

... which is why, as I say above: it's one thing to chose version B as a reaction to something seemingly problematic in A, but version A was not merely a discarded idea by comparison [Tolkien rejecting A for B], and is still intended as a tale within the conceit.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

Well, sorry to be pedantic but do we know these two versions are not Tolkien simply changing his mind?

I have a vague memory of CJRT giving a possible explanation about how to reconcile two 'somethings' about Dol Amroth... but I'm pretty sure there [if this is the same matter], he also admits or suggests the likelihood of these being two accounts that were not necessarily both meant to be confused from a story-internal perspective.

I mean we could have more than two versions of The Elessar if we merely look at what JRRT wrote about it, but The Elessar as a text is clearly treating the variant tales as both found within the subcreated world...

... which is why, as I say above: it's one thing to chose version B as a reaction to something seemingly problematic in A, but version A was not merely a discarded idea by comparison [Tolkien rejecting A for B], and is still intended as a tale within the conceit.

This is why I said I assumed they are 'internal'. However, even if this is a case of Tolkien changing his mind we have Imrahil's words that the story of extra Elf blood flowing through the veins of the princes is internal.

'So it is said in the lore of my land'

So we can accept that there is at least one internal story of the Princes being descendant of an elf.

As for whether this was simply Tolkien changing his mind or two external stories, Christopher Tolkien seemed to favour the latter idea.

'While not impossible (merging the two stories) these explanations to save consistency seem to me less likely that that of two distinct and independent 'traditions' of the origins of the Lords of Dol Amroth'

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

As for whether this was simply Tolkien changing his mind or two external stories, Christopher Tolkien seemed to favour the latter idea.
'While not impossible (merging the two stories) these explanations to save consistency seem to me less likely that that of two distinct and independent 'traditions' of the origins of the Lords of Dol Amroth'

But that's the same in my opinion, so I'm a bit confused here. That is, if we have Tolkien changing his mind, then we have two external stories.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

But that's the same in my opinion, so I'm a bit confused here. That is, if we have Tolkien changing his mind, then we have two external stories.

I don't think it is since both stories are internal. The legend of the Princes being descended from an Elf is something we hear about in LOTR. It is a legend that Imrahil addresses. This is not a case of Tolkien changing his mind for me, but rather adding another version ( a more accurate one) I believe.


As for the Elessar if Gandalf had brought it in the 3rd Age then Galadriel would have had no use of it. From the way Earendil used the Elessar, it seems to me like it had similar powers to the Silmarillion. They were similar in design. The Elessar captured the light of the corrupted sun, but the Silmarillions were not only superior in make but had the pure uncorrupted light.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I don't think it is since both stories are internal. The legend of the Princes being descended from an Elf is something we hear about in LOTR. It is a legend that Imrahil addresses. This is not a case of Tolkien changing his mind for me, but rather adding another version ( a more accurate one) I believe.

Well that much is internal, yes, that there is a legend of mixed Elvish blood is surely so.

But that alone doesn't necessarily mean that two competing [and never published by Tolkien himself] versions of the history of Dol Amroth, despite that both can be connected in some way to this legend, are intended to be two, purposeful variations within the subcreated world.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

Well that much is internal, yes, that there is a legend of mixed Elvish blood is surely so.

But that alone doesn't necessarily mean that two competing [and never published by Tolkien himself] versions of the history of Dol Amroth, despite that both can be connected in some way to this legend, are intended to be two, purposeful variations within the subcreated world.

Well Christopher Tolkien has seen all the notes and he seems to think they were conflicting 'traditions'. This to me suggest that he believes his father intended for both stories to be 'traditions' that were handed down in Dol Amroth.

3,000 years is a long time and lots of lore had been lost in Gondor.

I dunno. Arwen was Elros's niece and so has about 1/4 to 1/8th of his genome. And more elfy blood than Elros. I'd have thought those two factors, add in Aragorn's pure blood, then the Elessar might mean some restoration of longevity.

The Elessar, as I read it, also 'filters out' the taint of Morgoth in that influence upon the sun. I wonder what this meant for Gondorian citizens under its radiance. Galadriel used it as a lesser power to Nenya for the same reason. Add in that stuff about it being 'free of the One' and you have a pretty impressive Elf Stone...

Yet all the other Numenoreans had no elf blood and their lives were extended too. If we are to except the story of Imrazor and Mithrellas then the additional blood of Mithrellas really in the grand scheme of things did not change much either.

Without the gift of Numenor (a land freed from Morgoth's taint and blessed by the Valar) the Numenoreans would never reach that height again no matter how pure or loyal they were.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Well Christopher Tolkien has seen all the notes and he seems to think they were conflicting 'traditions'. This to me suggest that he believes his father intended for both stories to be 'traditions' that were handed down in Dol Amroth.

3,000 years is a long time and lots of lore had been lost in Gondor.

It is a long time, but it's up to JRR Tolkien to decide what has been lost, or might have become confused, within any given time period, within the subcreated world.

The use of quotation marks ['traditions'] by Christopher Tolkien is interesting here: does he mean he thinks they are internal, or that they are different traditions, full stop, even if they might be intended as in-story traditions? We've no way of knowing that at the moment...

... but in any case even Christopher Tolkien cannot be sure here.

[Ivriniel]

I've refreshed my reading on the Elessar, after having read materials here on thread as well, found that eye opening, because I also discovered why memory encoding tends to go the way it does, by looking at materials here and books at hand. And comparing.

For the Elessar version as: Olorin chatting to Galadriel in the woods, and Olorin bringing back an item for her from the West--after an obscure name we'll never hear anywhere else 'Enerdhil' made it FA and when it passed away. Where has that occurred elsewhere (artefact return from Valinor), post FA, except for the Palantiri and for very special reason, on Numenor, nigh to the Uttermost West and for comms.

The competing version has the difficult notion of Celebrimbor in Gondolin. And the idea of a second making is, um, okay-ish in my sense. The courtship jewell for Galadriel.

I found some other items, on an aside very interesting. The idea that Melkor is somehow 'affecting' the sun from the Void! And, perhaps, that was what Tolkien meant by the change in Middle Earth and lessening of Elves and Men and the Dunedain over time?

--and--there was reference to the Elessar somehow being exempt of the taint of the One (Ring) because it was made before it! WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

There is another in-text item I cannot square. As noted above by another poster: how or why does Arwen get the jewel (or rights to it) through Celebrian?

Then I got wondering if the Elessar (doing greening/revival things) had that kind of 'radiance' effect in Gondor, upon the Dunedain of Isildur. Does this mean that Aragorn's realm was kinda being preserved longer? What of the influence on the White Tree? Did the sapling sprout because Aragorn arrived with the Elessar? And how did Gandalf know to look at Mindoluin for the new sapling?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I've refreshed my reading on the Elessar, after having read materials here on thread as well, found that eye opening, because I also discovered why memory encoding tends to go the way it does, by looking at materials here and books at hand. And comparing.

For the Elessar version as: Olorin chatting to Galadriel in the woods, and Olorin bringing back an item for her from the West--after an obscure name we'll never hear anywhere else 'Enerdhil' made it FA and when it passed away. Where has that occurred elsewhere (artefact return from Valinor), post FA, except for the Palantiri and for very special reason, on Numenor, nigh to the Uttermost West and for comms.

The competing version has the difficult notion of Celebrimbor in Gondolin. And the idea of a second making is, um, okay-ish in my sense. The courtship jewell for Galadriel.

I found some other items, on an aside very interesting. The idea that Melkor is somehow 'affecting' the sun from the Void! And, perhaps, that was what Tolkien meant by the change in Middle Earth and lessening of Elves and Men and the Dunedain over time?

--and--there was reference to the Elessar somehow being exempt of the taint of the One (Ring) because it was made before it! WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

There is another in-text item I cannot square. As noted above by another poster: how or why does Arwen get the jewel (or rights to it) through Celebrian?

Then I got wondering if the Elessar (doing greening/revival things) had that kind of 'radiance' effect in Gondor, upon the Dunedain of Isildur. Does this mean that Aragorn's realm was kinda being preserved longer? What of the influence on the White Tree? Did the sapling sprout because Aragorn arrived with the Elessar? And how did Gandalf know to look at Mindoluin for the new sapling?

I think Gandalf might have read something in the records. He thoroughly was researching the ring and maybe he came across something, which the Stewards had long forgotten. Or maybe it was one of those small things that were revealed to him by Eru when he died.

I don't think it's any great mystery as to why Arwen would inherit the jewel through her mother. Once Galadriel had use of her Ring, she would not need the Elessar so why not pass it to her daughter.

Morgoth's corruption of Middle Earth was something he did before being forced into the void and is precisely why everything outside Aman is not quite what it once was. Black magic is drawing out the essence of Morgoth to perform 'magic' and is the only kind of magic men seem to be able to use.

During Aragorn's reign Gondor was greener and more beautiful than ever so it probably did. It probably not only renewed and revitalized the flora, but also the people. I imagine there was a great baby boom during the early part of his reign. Of course Aragorn would not have the power Galadriel, let alone Earendil had with the jewel.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I think Gandalf might have read something in the records. He thoroughly was researching the ring and maybe he came across something, which the Stewards had long forgotten. Or maybe it was one of those small things that were revealed to him by Eru when he died.

Hey there Celludur

Yeah, could be--or perhaps Gandalf was (present) when the seed was planted? I'm imagining he had his eye on that ole tree? And maybe chatted to the then realmsmen to plant the seed for a rainy day. I wonder if he knew about when/why Galathilion bore a fruit. He was, after all, around when Telperion made a seed, and no doubt, this would have been one of those 'dinner table conversations' for Valinor. Some appreciation of the when, where and why the tree propagates may have been known to him, as the Maia he is.

I don't think it's any great mystery as to why Arwen would inherit the jewel through her mother. Once Galadriel had use of her Ring, she would not need the Elessar so why not pass it to her daughter.

Didn't Alatáriel give the Elessar directly to Aragorn?

Morgoth's corruption of Middle Earth was something he did before being forced into the void and is precisely why everything outside Aman is not quite what it once was. Black magic is drawing out the essence of Morgoth to perform 'magic' and is the only kind of magic men seem to be able to use.

What about the magic of Adunaic language users (the Blades of the Westernesse--barrow wights), Orthanc Stone etc, seemed to be free of 'taint' (but I get that generally, 'sorcery' was considered a black art and of Morgoth)....

and

Pukel Men magic (there are some citations I have that refer to untainted protective 'stone magic' of Pukel Men).

During Aragorn's reign Gondor was greener and more beautiful than ever so it probably did. It probably not only renewed and revitalized the flora, but also the people. I imagine there was a great baby boom during the early part of his reign. Of course Aragorn would not have the power Galadriel, let alone Earendil had with the jewel.

This is pretty interesting. I wonder what it did about lifespan matters. I also wonder how old Aragorn's kids lived. I imagine their lifespan was restored to that of, nigh, Elros (five hundred and something)

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Hey there Celludur

Yeah, could be--or perhaps Gandalf was (present) when the seed was planted? I'm imagining he had his eye on that ole tree? And maybe chatted to the then realmsmen to plant the seed for a rainy day. I wonder if he knew about when/why Galathilion bore a fruit. He was, after all, around when Telperion made a seed, and no doubt, this would have been one of those 'dinner table conversations' for Valinor. Some appreciation of the when, where and why the tree propagates may have been known to him, as the Maia he is.

Possible, but we hear that Gandalf did not go to Gondor much in that time. The Sea Kings were too proud and too strong to listen to his council.

Didn't Alatáriel give the Elessar directly to Aragorn?

Yes, but Arwen was constantly travelling between Imladris and Lothlorien. It's not that surprising for her to have left it for Aragorn there or even sent it with Elronds sons (when they travelled there before the Fellowship left). Even at Rivendell Aragorn seemed aware he was going to be given the Elessar, since he request that Bilbo put a line about the stone in his song.

What about the magic of Adunaic language users (the Blades of the Westernesse--barrow wights), Orthanc Stone etc, seemed to be free of 'taint' (but I get that generally, 'sorcery' was considered a black art and of Morgoth)....

The Numenoreans are a special case, because they live on a Blessed Island apart from the world Morogth had tainted. They also are masters of science and much of what we call 'magic' is just an example of how sophisticated they were. They also were blessed by the Valar with gifts that man seemed to have enjoyed before they fell such as telepathic communication and a freedom from illness. That apart the nobles in Numenor were descendants of Melian and therefore could perform magic. The truly magical artifacts we see could be that divine power still shining through.

and

Pukel Men magic (there are some citations I have that refer to untainted protective 'stone magic' of Pukel Men).

The Pukel Men is a strange one. We really don't know and there are some dark suggestions that they were originally captured by Morgoth and experimented on. Really it's impossible for us to know and we can only speculate.

This is pretty interesting. I wonder what it did about lifespan matters. I also wonder how old Aragorn's kids lived. I imagine their lifespan was restored to that of, nigh, Elros (five hundred and something)

No I don't think any of Aragorn's descendants would have a lifespan even approaching his 210 years. Aragorn firmly states he is the Last Numenorean King. The long life Numenor had was not just due to the purity of their blood, but the way they adapted the Elvish lifestyle.

However, the biggest and main factor was that Numenor was free from the taint of Morgoth.The Numnoreans were living in a virtually Morgoth free environment unlike those of Gondor. This is something they could never get back.

That being said I think you are right in some part and for a little one while the people of Gondor may have enjoyed a small renaissance in longevity. We know that Faramir is the longest lived Steward since Mardil, but this is still only 120 and a far cry from the days of Elros. I would imagine that other noble families may have started reaching 100 on a regular basis, but nothing close to the Gondorians of old let alone those of Elros' day. Eomer for instance only reached 90.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

... which is why, as I say above: it's one thing to chose version B as a reaction to something seemingly problematic in A, but version A was not merely a discarded idea by comparison [Tolkien rejecting A for B], and is still intended as a tale within the conceit.

In UT, the variant stories of the Elessar are said by CJRT to be on the same four page text. After the Gondolin made jewel was lost, the text reads:

In ages after there was again an Elessar, and of this two things are said, though which is true only the Wise could say, who are now gone.

Curiously, the text ends with:

The Elessar was made in Gondolin by Celebrimbor....But that passed away. But the second Elessar was made also by Celebrimbor in Eregion at the request of the Lady Galadriel.

It's difficult to see why, in light of the introduced ambiguity in the main body of the story, Tolkien would end in such a declarative fashion about which version was the truth.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It's difficult to see why, in light of the introduced ambiguity in the main body of the story, Tolkien would end in such a declarative fashion about which version was the truth.

My explanation is that this 'concluding' section of the text is not a conclusion of the text proper, but an external summation with an intended revision from Tolkien regarding Celebrimbor and Enerdhil. Christopher Tolkien describes...

'Enerdhil appears in no other writing; and the concluding words of this text show that Celebrimbor was to displace him as the maker of the Elessar in Gondolin.'

And the seeming clarity that the first jool passed away could be a revision too, but I'm more inclined to think this is due to the brevity of summing up both tales. As I posted earlier, the further external factor is, in my opinion, that when Celebrimbor becomes a Feanorean he is arguably not going to remain a smith in Gondolin.

Thus if we take The Elessar as 'canon' it arguably reads better with Enerdhil anway!

In my opinion. Again to me it doesn't read like part of the text, but a summation of the two with an 'intended' change that never occurred.

[Inziladun]

I still favor the Celebrimbor version. However, returning to your question of why Olórin would have brought it to Galadriel, if she already possessed Nenya, I have an idea or two.

In the first place, it's possible Gandalf, when he arrived at the Havens in the Third Age, was coming in blind, maybe knowing little or nothing of the Rings of Power. If he'd been given the Elessar to pass to Galadriel, it might not have occurred to him to wonder why she needed it. Also, he made a point of telling her it was not intended for her sole keeping forever, but that she was to give it to a certain person in the future.
I wonder too, if the powers of the Elessar and the Three, though similar in healing properties, were nonetheless subtly different, owing to the gifts and intentions of their respective makers.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I still favor the Celebrimbor version. However, returning to your question of why Olórin would have brought it to Galadriel, if she already possessed Nenya, I have an idea or two.

In the first place, it's possible Gandalf, when he arrived at the Havens in the Third Age, was coming in blind, maybe knowing little or nothing of the Rings of Power. If he'd been given the Elessar to pass to Galadriel, it might not have occurred to him to wonder why she needed it. Also, he made a point of telling her it was not intended for her sole keeping forever, but that she was to give it to a certain person in the future. I wonder too, if the powers of the Elessar and the Three, though similar in healing properties, were nonetheless subtly different, owing to the gifts and intentions of their respective makers.

Hmm, my problem with these is that Galadriel appears to desire preservation power in the first place, and then Olorin offers her the stone.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

Hmm, my problem with these is that Galadriel appears to desire preservation power in the first place, and then Olorin offers her the stone.

Indeed, which is why I think the powers of Nenya and the Elessar might have some differences. Perhaps Galadriel used the latter to augment the former.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Indeed, which is why I think the powers of Nenya and the Elessar might have some differences. Perhaps Galadriel used the latter to augment the former.

But that still misses the main question in my opinion: why does Galadriel, before even knowing that the Elessar is with Olorin, desire preservation power if she can employ Nenya, as she certainly does in the Third Age? The Three were already powerful, and made for preservation.

That's the question that goes away if she cannot employ Nenya at all because it's too early, with Olorin but not 'Gandalf'.