the elessar - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Mithalwen · 03-18-2014, 10:16 PM

Wasn't it Feanor whom Galadriel refused a lock of hair?

Ivriniel · 03-18-2014, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Wasn't it Feanor whom Galadriel refused a lock of hair?

It's been a while since I re-read. I'll go check UFT and my other tomes.....cheers

Galin · 03-19-2014, 04:36 AM

Yes it was Feanor [The Shibboleth of Feanor] who was refused by Galadriel... concerning the Nerwenian hair matter.

Another possibility is that Olórin took ship to Edhellond in the Second Age. Not that I necessarily would choose version A over B, but again this merely allows a way to step around the question of Nenya in the Third Age.

Granted A notes that the 'years' of her exile were wearing heavy on Galadriel, but I think there is still plenty of years in the Second Age for this, before Numenor fell. Another thing that threw me a bit before was the brief statement that Olórin had arrived with the Elessar out of the West, as if referencing only one trip; but that too seems vague enough to me.

And yes I think Celebrimbor the Feanorean was a later idea than the text of the Elessar, which is why I plug Enerdhil back in as the Elf from Gondolin without Celebrimbor. Again we are dealing with a still private [to Tolkien] text, not necessarily updated after Celebrimbor's change to a Feanorean [although there was some revision regarding Galadriel's ban, for example].

With respect to the first version of the two competing Elessar tales, Hammond and Scull (Reader's Guide) also note that, in comparison to what was already published: '... the tale seems to suggest that there was a breach of trust, in that Galadriel did not keep the Elessar for the one destined to receive it'...

... because in The Lord of the Rings Galadriel said that she had given the stone to her daughter. In the second version Tolkien explicitly refers to Galadriel giving the stone to her daughter, so it doesn't seem like he had forgotten this. I suppose Galadriel still could be said to have 'handed it on when the time came' as technically the jewel had come to her once again to give to Aragorn (if we look at Gandalf's statement more as a prediction), though even so, she handed it on before Elessar came to receive it.

I noted this in the thread: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=15599

cellurdur · 03-20-2014, 09:29 AM

Like with the Princes of Dol Amroth, Tolkien left two versions. I personally now favour the version of Celebrimbor making a second Elessar.

The question of Gandalf turning up in the Second Age would raise all sorts of problems. At that point Sauron had not yet grown so powerful that the West could not defeat him unassisted.

Galin · 03-20-2014, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Like with the Princes of Dol Amroth, Tolkien left two versions. I personally now favour the version of Celebrimbor making a second Elessar.

Is it like this however [it might be but I can't recall right now]?

In other words, are there two internal versions of something relating to the Princes of Dol Amroth?

cellurdur · 03-20-2014, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galin

Is it like this however [it might be but I can't recall right now]?

In other words, are there two internal versions of something relating to the Princes of Dol Amroth?

Well I assume they are 'internal'. We have the one story where the Princes are descendants of Imrazor and Mithrellas.

Then we have the other version where the princes are close relatives to Elendil and he personally raises them to the rank of 'prince'. This is the version I tend to favour, but we have two accounts, which though are not definitely conflicting like the case with the Elessar are not harmonious and cannot really be forced to fit together.

Galin · 03-20-2014, 12:48 PM

Well, sorry to be pedantic but do we know these two versions are not Tolkien simply changing his mind?

I have a vague memory of CJRT giving a possible explanation about how to reconcile two 'somethings' about Dol Amroth... but I'm pretty sure there [if this is the same matter], he also admits or suggests the likelihood of these being two accounts that were not necessarily both meant to be confused from a story-internal perspective.

I mean we could have more than two versions of The Elessar if we merely look at what JRRT wrote about it, but The Elessar as a text is clearly treating the variant tales as both found within the subcreated world...

... which is why, as I say above: it's one thing to chose version B as a reaction to something seemingly problematic in A, but version A was not merely a discarded idea by comparison [Tolkien rejecting A for B], and is still intended as a tale within the conceit.

03-18-2014, 10:16 PM	#1
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Wasn't it Feanor whom Galadriel refused a lock of hair? __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

03-19-2014, 04:36 AM	#3
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	Yes it was Feanor [The Shibboleth of Feanor] who was refused by Galadriel... concerning the Nerwenian hair matter. Another possibility is that Olórin took ship to Edhellond in the Second Age. Not that I necessarily would choose version A over B, but again this merely allows a way to step around the question of Nenya in the Third Age. Granted A notes that the 'years' of her exile were wearing heavy on Galadriel, but I think there is still plenty of years in the Second Age for this, before Numenor fell. Another thing that threw me a bit before was the brief statement that Olórin had arrived with the Elessar out of the West, as if referencing only one trip; but that too seems vague enough to me. And yes I think Celebrimbor the Feanorean was a later idea than the text of the Elessar, which is why I plug Enerdhil back in as the Elf from Gondolin without Celebrimbor. Again we are dealing with a still private [to Tolkien] text, not necessarily updated after Celebrimbor's change to a Feanorean [although there was some revision regarding Galadriel's ban, for example]. With respect to the first version of the two competing Elessar tales, Hammond and Scull (Reader's Guide) also note that, in comparison to what was already published: '... the tale seems to suggest that there was a breach of trust, in that Galadriel did not keep the Elessar for the one destined to receive it'... ... because in The Lord of the Rings Galadriel said that she had given the stone to her daughter. In the second version Tolkien explicitly refers to Galadriel giving the stone to her daughter, so it doesn't seem like he had forgotten this. I suppose Galadriel still could be said to have 'handed it on when the time came' as technically the jewel had come to her once again to give to Aragorn (if we look at Gandalf's statement more as a prediction), though even so, she handed it on before Elessar came to receive it. I noted this in the thread: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=15599 Last edited by Galin; 03-19-2014 at 05:00 AM.

03-20-2014, 09:29 AM	#4
cellurdur Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 276	Like with the Princes of Dol Amroth, Tolkien left two versions. I personally now favour the version of Celebrimbor making a second Elessar. The question of Gandalf turning up in the Second Age would raise all sorts of problems. At that point Sauron had not yet grown so powerful that the West could not defeat him unassisted.

03-20-2014, 12:48 PM	#7
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	Well, sorry to be pedantic but do we know these two versions are not Tolkien simply changing his mind? I have a vague memory of CJRT giving a possible explanation about how to reconcile two 'somethings' about Dol Amroth... but I'm pretty sure there [if this is the same matter], he also admits or suggests the likelihood of these being two accounts that were not necessarily both meant to be confused from a story-internal perspective. I mean we could have more than two versions of The Elessar if we merely look at what JRRT wrote about it, but The Elessar as a text is clearly treating the variant tales as both found within the subcreated world... ... which is why, as I say above: it's one thing to chose version B as a reaction to something seemingly problematic in A, but version A was not merely a discarded idea by comparison [Tolkien rejecting A for B], and is still intended as a tale within the conceit.