Magic in Middle-earth

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Sadly I completely agree with this. The best way to deal with that problem would be to not include "magic" in a Middle earth game at all. Elven magic, for example, was not really of a combative nature anyway.

As blantyr said, magic in Middle earth was almost always subtle.

It was so subtle that those lacking in subcreative ability would frequently go without realizing it and when they did see it they completely misunderstood it.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

This is why I like the RP section on the Downs - we stay canonical..

There is a difference between magic being subtle and magic being nonexistent. In an open gaming format such as the Barrow-Downs inn games, I can entirely understand and agree with a decision to play Tolkien without magic. At the same time, it seems plausible to argue that Tolkien without magic isn't Tolkien. An elf without the Art isn't really an elf. Such certainly wouldn't be canonical Tolkien.

Before bringing Goldie to the Golden Perch, I sat back and tried to remember a single instance of her using spell craft in an inn in her original game. I couldn't think of one. I then tried to think of how she might plausibly want to use spell craft in a mixed race inn that the mortals might conceivably notice. I convinced myself, almost, that a lack of magic didn't truly didn't matter. Almost.

With all due reflection, playing Goldie without magic wouldn't be as bad as playing Goldie without fully opaque clothing. Both seem wrong at a basic and fundamental level, even if no one is likely to notice. And yet, given a healthy disagreement here on what 'canonical' Tolkien magic might be like, it might be for the best that no one should try to role play out the varied honest and deeply held ideas.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by blantyr

The author of our rules suggests that orcs and wild men might have shaman. He suggests there might be secret societies in the south and east around Umbar that teach some poor and corrupt variation of wizardry, that the Black Numenarian tradition might not have entirely died out. I won't assert that such allegations are canon. Our game master hasn't used spell casters among the enemy yet, and I won't object if he never does.

Adding to that Tolkien's speculation that the Blue Wizards may have failed and become "founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions" (quoted in Note 3 to The Istari in UT), and bearing in mind that Men, as Morth has noted, seem to exhibit little or no innate magical abilities, it seems plausible to me that the only Men to use spellcraft (meaning magic based on learnable and teachable spells) would be those influenced by the Shadow or misled by other fallen Maiar - i.e. 'the enemy'.

Originally Posted by blantyr

There is a difference between magic being subtle and magic being nonexistent. In an open gaming format such as the Barrow-Downs inn games, I can entirely understand and agree with a decision to play Tolkien without magic. At the same time, it seems plausible to argue that Tolkien without magic isn't Tolkien. An elf without the Art isn't really an elf. Such certainly wouldn't be canonical Tolkien.

D'accord, but as you note yourself, it's difficult to think of a situation where magic might be plausibly used in an inn setting. You could heal a cook's burnt fingers, or sing a song to appease two brawling drunkards, but both situations can be dealt with just as easily without resorting to magic.
But the inns aren't the whole of BD role-playing. There have been and will be games where magic can play a part.

Originally Posted by blantyr

With all due reflection, playing Goldie without magic wouldn't be as bad as playing Goldie without fully opaque clothing.

*points to your avatar*

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Adding to that Tolkien's speculation that the Blue Wizards may have failed and become "founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions" (quoted in Note 3 to The Istari in UT), and bearing in mind that Men, as Morth has noted, seem to exhibit little or no innate magical abilities, it seems plausible to me that the only Men to use spellcraft (meaning magic based on learnable and teachable spells) would be those influenced by the Shadow or misled by other fallen Maiar - i.e. 'the enemy'.

That may well be true, Pitch, but a "magic tradition", like skaldic or shamanistic rituals, does not necessarily mean actual magic has been performed. The evil eye, curses, love philters, voodoo and putting a hex on the neighbor's cow are all part of real-world superstition. And none amount to a hill of beans.

I am reminded of the part in The Hobbit where the Dwarves and Bilbo bury their ill-gotten gold and the Dwarves put all sorts of spells on their hidden treasure. Was it effective or merely mumbo-jumbo from members of a race who had lost whatever subcreative power they had sometime after Narvi crafted the doors of Moria.

[Galadriel55]

Blantyr - Yes, you're right that Tolkien without magic isn't Tolkien, and Elves aren't Elves. However, I'd say that most of the time their magic just radiates from them without them preforming anything. For example, Gildor didn't do anything noticably magical, but the Hobbits felt it.

Sometimes their magic is more evident to a reader (like flooding the Bruinen or Galadriel's mirror. Or even Legolas' ability to sleep on the run). But the day-to-day magic is, as as said before, subtle. You don't necessarily notice it, but it's there.

And talking about RPing in an inn, to emphasize the magic, other characters have to react to it. Like Al reacted to Elin - even though she is only a woman of Gondor (but they are also noted to have this radiating something).

[Nerwen]

Pitch and Morth– I'm actually going to have to agree with he of the naked avatar here:

Originally Posted by blantyr

I am dubious about taking one quote out of this book or that and saying that quote settles an issue. There are too many quotes that can support too many opinions.

In other words, beware the Tolkien Trap, hmmn?

blantyr, your skill at introducing the subject of "Ambarquenta" and your character Goldie into any given thread is truly a wonder to behold. However, I cannot help thinking that it would be much simpler and less confusing to everyone else if you were to make a specific "Ambarquenta" thread and just discuss the game there.

How about it?

[Eönwë]

In regards to non-Elvish humans having a lack of "innate power" or ability, I feel obligated to bring up the Drúedain.

In response to the actual discussion, I'd say 'magic' in Middle-Earth is more of a combination of innate power and skill/fulfilment of the innate ability.

As an example, the Noldor seem to have an innate propensity towards crafting and creating objects of beauty. However, under the tutelage of Aulë, Fëanor can create the Silmarils, and as such is counted as the greatest craftsman of all time. He is naturally high in the hierarchy of the Noldor, which generally seems to suggest more innate ability (whether it is this that makes them the rulers or the other way around I'm not sure), it is only under the skill and experience of the Valar that Fëanor reach the pinnacle of Elvish craftsmanship. And so I'd say that you need both the natural born ability as well as the learning of the craft to create 'magic' of some sort. Celembrimbor was skilled, but it was only with the knowledge that Sauron gave him that he could create the rings of power. It's not that he wasn't capable of it, it's just that he didn't know how.

Of course, if you look at the Teleri, it's clearer- those that went closer to the West are more influenced by the Valar, and so have greater ability. And sometimes it seems that it is not even knowledge, but just the "light of the two trees" and being among the Valinorean Ainur that increases the 'magical abilities' of the character, and I suppose this just counts as a 'positive side effect' of being in or nearer to Valinor. However, I'd suggest that it follows the same principles, and that a human who goes to Valinor will never be as 'magical' as an Elf who goes to Valinor, just because of their nature- the Elves are tied to Arda, and so can manipulate it and are more 'in-tune' with it, while the humans are more distant, and so rely on their own ingenuity. And often this involves being at discord with nature, for example factories/industry, which mirrors the similar attributes of the schemes of the great discordants, Melkor and all those who followed him (even indirectly, like Saruman). And I think this is what separates it from 'magic'. Magic is more the manipulation of nature in accordance with nature and the Music, while technology is the manipulation of nature while going against its natural state.

I'd say that for the Valar and Maiar, their power is almost totally innate, as they created Eä, and so understand it at the fundamental level. This also means, however, that they can go against it at this level, as in the case of Melkor. Elves are quite in touch with the earth, but obviously, they are still not truly eternal like the Ainur (they get born etc.), and so naturally have to grow up, and don't just have their full 'magical' capability from birth. And going to Valinor helps. Humankind doesn't generally have that much natural power other than the "ordinary everyday sort" (what he says about Hobbits, which count as a type of human). Obviously, they have the Gift, and so can die and are possibly able to have more free will, but I don't know if that counts as magic. Or maybe that's actually what means that they have less magic, as they are less connected to the world (as I mentioned in the previous paragraph). And remember, Denethor doesn't have much Elf in him at all, but he can still control the Palantír. And as SpM said, the Shire has its own sort of peaceful, good magic, and its inhabitants are quite close to nature.

So, in summary, you need to have the innate ability to perform magic (which everyone in Middle-Earth seems to have to certain extent, and with a certain style), but you also need to learn (either through being taught or by yourself, the hard way) how to use it to its full potential. It also related to how close you are to nature, which could explain why someone like Tom Bombadil (who is very linked to nature), is so powerful.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

That may well be true, Pitch, but a "magic tradition", like skaldic or shamanistic rituals, does not necessarily mean actual magic has been performed. The evil eye, curses, love philters, voodoo and putting a hex on the neighbor's cow are all part of real-world superstition. And none amount to a hill of beans.

OK, that's a point, but in a world populated by elves, dragons, walking trees and other beings and powers disbelieved in by the likes of Ted Sandyman, there's not that much I'd readily shrug off as superstition.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Sometimes their magic is more evident to a reader (like flooding the Bruinen or Galadriel's mirror. Or even Legolas' ability to sleep on the run). But the day-to-day magic is, as as said before, subtle. You don't necessarily notice it, but it's there.

Unless I completely misunderstood him, isn't that just what blantyr himself has been saying for a while?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

blantyr, your skill at introducing the subject of "Ambarquenta" and your character Goldie into any given thread is truly a wonder to behold.

Quoted for truth. I appreciate your personal angle, blantyr, and I think it can shed an interesting light on some topics, but having Goldie all over the place all the time might become a little tedious after a while.

Eönwë - shame on me, I quite forgot the Drúedain! Their art of creating watchstones seems to combine all three of the factors you've named - innate power, craft and closeness to nature. That's a very nice 3D coordinate system in which to locate the various kinds of magic practiced by the peoples of Middle-earth.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Blantyr - Yes, you're right that Tolkien without magic isn't Tolkien, and Elves aren't Elves. However, I'd say that most of the time their magic just radiates from them without them preforming anything. For example, Gildor didn't do anything noticeably magical, but the Hobbits felt it.

Sometimes their magic is more evident to a reader (like flooding the Bruinen or Galadriel's mirror. Or even Legolas' ability to sleep on the run). But the day-to-day magic is, as as said before, subtle. You don't necessarily notice it, but it's there.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And talking about RPing in an inn, to emphasize the magic, other characters have to react to it. Like Al reacted to Elin - even though she is only a woman of Gondor (but they are also noted to have this radiating something).

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Unless I completely misunderstood him, isn't that just what blantyr himself has been saying for a while?

Just so. I do believe there is a great deal of quiet magic which will pass for the most part unnoticed. Then again, not all of it is subtle. The flooding of the Bruinen and Gladriel's mirror aren't really subtle, I think. One knows something is going on.

Such overt magic and the folk that can wield would be rare? Galadriel, Gandalf, the other Istari, Eldrond, Sauron, the Nazgul, barrow wights, Tom Bombadil, Glorfindel… There are a relatively small number of folk that might be fairly blatant in doing things fairly overt. There are likely others that didn't appear in the books, but not a lot. Morthoron suggested a hierarchy of those with more magic than others. I'm entirely with him there.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And talking about RPing in an inn, to emphasize the magic, other characters have to react to it. Like Al reacted to Elin - even though she is only a woman of Gondor (but they are also noted to have this radiating something).

I might quibble this. I can well believe that a Gondorian woman with fairly pure Numenarian blood might well have gifts. They would have a place in Morthoron's hierarchy of those who might use Art. I am less sure that all Gondorian women should radiate sufficient power that a hobbit should pick up on it. I can well believe that if someone uses magic, another person nearby that can use magic might well notice. I would be doubtful that someone who uses no magic can sense someone who isn't currently using magic.

I could well believe the Elin has spent enough time at various southern courts to walk with an elegant posture and speak with a refined accent, if that is her defined background. Al might easily notice this and respond. Still, Aragorn would have at least as strong gifts such as prophecy and healing as Elin, and he can pass unnoticed. Not everyone picks up that Aragorn has gifts.

But I don't know any of the above is canon. I'm open to quotes and counter examples.

Speaking for myself, I don't know that magic has to be noticed in a role playing game. Quite the contrary. In most Middle Earth RPGs the player characters will not be in the same class as Gandalf or the Nazgul. Anything players would be doing would be subtle, might well not be noticed unless one is knowledgable and looking for it.

For example, should there be a brawl at an inn, should the brawlers be injured, a nameless elven minstrel might afterwards quietly sing a song to Este. If one didn't understand the Sindarin lyrics, and didn't know that Este has an aspect of healing, they might give all the credit for rapid recovery to the hobbit healer who comes in with aloe and bandages. As it would be impossible for such a minstrel to prove she deserves any credit for the healing, it might be prudent and wise not to claim any credit.

In my off line game, one of the games within the game is to practice magic without any of the other players noticing. As my character is the closest we have to a magic user, no one other than myself and the game master has paid much attention to the magic rules. Thus, we do quiet little stuff, entirely within the rules, and nobody else might notice or comment on it. This is certainly not be the only way to role play Tolkien magic, but doing it that way keeps me amused and no one gets jealous of the magic using elf.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

OK, that's a point, but in a world populated by elves, dragons, walking trees and other beings and powers disbelieved in by the likes of Ted Sandyman, there's not that much I'd readily shrug off as superstition.

I tend to agree. Again, I like Morthoron's hierarchy of who might use Art and how much power individuals might have. It is not clear to me that there aren't weaker individuals lower on Morthoron's hierarchy doing very small stuff. However, you don't see examples of shaman or wise women using minor spells in the books. It might be plausible to say if one doesn't have at least X amount of Numenarian or elven blood, that there should be no magic use.

I for one would prefer a softer border with more weak mages causing small effects, but this is personal taste not canon.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Quoted for truth. I appreciate your personal angle, blantyr, and I think it can shed an interesting light on some topics, but having Goldie all over the place all the time might become a little tedious after a while.

Acknowledged. I'll try to back off of it some, but sometimes it illustrates the point under discussion.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Unless I completely misunderstood him, isn't that just what blantyr himself has been saying for a while?

Yes, but the way I understood blantyr's posts is that Elves, Numenorians, etc have to do something in order to radiate subtle magic. They don't. It just happens that way.

Originally Posted by blantyr

Not everyone picks up that Aragorn has gifts.

Which is because they don't look for these gifts. They might still sense them, but not understand what they are feeling. It's true, however, that Aragorn often chooses to hide his gifts (mark the words - chooses to hide, not chooses to display; they are there all the time).

Other characters who are not as high as Aragorn also have a similar effect on people. The first one tht comes to mind is Faramir. Imrahil brought cheer to warriors during the siege of Gondor, - well, he has Elvish blood in him, but he's not an Elf. Eowyn gave courage to Merry, but that strength was only revealed in action.

I tend to pay special attention to looks. When people look at each other's faces, there always seems to be something happening. There are too many instances to describe all of them, but here are some notable ones:

-Melian: with her gaze she does wonders. She communicates more with her eyes than with her mouth. Examples: gave confidence to Beren and "awoke" Hurin/told him the truth.

-Arwen looked at Frodo as he and Bilbo left the room, a moment that Frodo remembered for the rest of his life.

-Aragorn: when he looked up, the Breelanders would stop taunting him and the hobbits. There are other instances throughout LOTR.

-Gandalf vs Denethor "duel"

-Faramir: I don't know where to begin. Multiple times with Frodo, Sam, and Gollum (note: Pippin and Sam feel 'something' about him). Heals Eowyn from her darkness and, well, opens her eyes.

-Eowyn:

Originally Posted by The Muster of Rohan

...One looked up glancing keenly at the hobbit. A young man, Merry thought as he returned the glance, less in height and grith than most. He caught the glint of clear gray eyes; and then he shivered, for it came suddenly to him that it was the face of one without hope who goes in search of death

(Eowyn is already dressed as Dernhelm)

And also what I already mentioned - how she gave Merry the courage to stab the WIKI without knowing it.


Even hobbits have this. There's "something Elvish" about Frodo.


All in all, I think that glances are one way to express magic.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I tend to agree. Again, I like Morthoron's hierarchy of who might use Art and how much power individuals might have. It is not clear to me that there aren't weaker individuals lower on Morthoron's hierarchy doing very small stuff. However, you don't see examples of shaman or wise women using minor spells in the books. It might be plausible to say if one doesn't have at least X amount of Numenarian or elven blood, that there should be no magic use.

As Eönwë points out, there's also the Drúedain. (btw, it's "Númenórean", not "Numenarian".)

Originally Posted by G55

Yes, but the way I understood blantyr's posts is that Elves, Numenorians, etc have to do something in order to radiate subtle magic. They don't. It just happens that way.

A good point– of course in the examples you give it's ambiguous– intentionally, I think– whether you're seeing merely a strong will, or a power in action. But you're right that it's rare that Tolkien's Elves (or Númenóreans) cast spells, as such. In contrast, blantyr's Elf-character's use of "subtle magic", it seems, requires her to be casting spells all the time, just unobtrusively:

Originally Posted by blantyr

should the brawlers be injured, a nameless elven minstrel might afterwards quietly sing a song to Este. If one didn't understand the Sindarin lyrics, and didn't know that Este has an aspect of healing, they might give all the credit for rapid recovery to the hobbit healer who comes in with aloe and bandages.

On that note– blantyr, both from your own description and from the sample rules and character sheets I've looked at, it's pretty clear that the makers of "Ambarquenta" have had to do a good deal of tweaking, codifying things that were probably never meant to be codified, and making up details out of whole cloth. I'm not saying they're not trying to be as faithful to the original as they could be and still keep the game playable– it's just that a roleplaying system and a novel simply don't operate the same way. For this reason I remain puzzled as to why you apparently believe you can work backwards and apply the rules of AQ to its source.

That said, it sounds like a perfectly good game and one that no doubt would interest many of us here. Again, why don't you just make a thread about it?

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Yes, but the way I understood blantyr's posts is that Elves, Numenorians, etc have to do something in order to radiate subtle magic. They don't. It just happens that way.

Which is because they don't look for these gifts. They might still sense them, but not understand what they are feeling. It's true, however, that Aragorn often chooses to hide his gifts (mark the words - chooses to hide, not chooses to display; they are there all the time).

Other characters who are not as high as Aragorn also have a similar effect on people. The first one tht comes to mind is Faramir. Imrahil brought cheer to warriors during the siege of Gondor, - well, he has Elvish blood in him, but he's not an Elf. Eowyn gave courage to Merry, but that strength was only revealed in action.

I tend to pay special attention to looks. When people look at each other's faces, there always seems to be something happening. There are too many instances to describe all of them, but here are some notable ones:

-Melian: with her gaze she does wonders. She communicates more with her eyes than with her mouth. Examples: gave confidence to Beren and "awoke" Hurin/told him the truth.

-Arwen looked at Frodo as he and Bilbo left the room, a moment that Frodo remembered for the rest of his life.

-Aragorn: when he looked up, the Breelanders would stop taunting him and the hobbits. There are other instances throughout LOTR.

-Gandalf vs Denethor "duel"

-Faramir: I don't know where to begin. Multiple times with Frodo, Sam, and Gollum (note: Pippin and Sam feel 'something' about him). Heals Eowyn from her darkness and, well, opens her eyes.

-Eowyn:

(Eowyn is already dressed as Dernhelm)

And also what I already mentioned - how she gave Merry the courage to stab the WIKI without knowing it.

Even hobbits have this. There's "something Elvish" about Frodo.

All in all, I think that glances are one way to express magic.

To me, this is all characterization. Tolkien created some strong characters that can convey personality and feelings to others. There is no need to assume any sort of occult force is in play. Words, facial expression and posture is sufficient. Scenes and characterization such as this can and do take place in stories outside of the fantasy genera in settings where there is no pretense of magic.