Magic in Middle-earth

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

That may well be true, Pitch, but a "magic tradition", like skaldic or shamanistic rituals, does not necessarily mean actual magic has been performed. The evil eye, curses, love philters, voodoo and putting a hex on the neighbor's cow are all part of real-world superstition. And none amount to a hill of beans.

OK, that's a point, but in a world populated by elves, dragons, walking trees and other beings and powers disbelieved in by the likes of Ted Sandyman, there's not that much I'd readily shrug off as superstition.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Sometimes their magic is more evident to a reader (like flooding the Bruinen or Galadriel's mirror. Or even Legolas' ability to sleep on the run). But the day-to-day magic is, as as said before, subtle. You don't necessarily notice it, but it's there.

Unless I completely misunderstood him, isn't that just what blantyr himself has been saying for a while?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

blantyr, your skill at introducing the subject of "Ambarquenta" and your character Goldie into any given thread is truly a wonder to behold.

Quoted for truth. I appreciate your personal angle, blantyr, and I think it can shed an interesting light on some topics, but having Goldie all over the place all the time might become a little tedious after a while.

Eönwë - shame on me, I quite forgot the Drúedain! Their art of creating watchstones seems to combine all three of the factors you've named - innate power, craft and closeness to nature. That's a very nice 3D coordinate system in which to locate the various kinds of magic practiced by the peoples of Middle-earth.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Blantyr - Yes, you're right that Tolkien without magic isn't Tolkien, and Elves aren't Elves. However, I'd say that most of the time their magic just radiates from them without them preforming anything. For example, Gildor didn't do anything noticeably magical, but the Hobbits felt it.

Sometimes their magic is more evident to a reader (like flooding the Bruinen or Galadriel's mirror. Or even Legolas' ability to sleep on the run). But the day-to-day magic is, as as said before, subtle. You don't necessarily notice it, but it's there.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And talking about RPing in an inn, to emphasize the magic, other characters have to react to it. Like Al reacted to Elin - even though she is only a woman of Gondor (but they are also noted to have this radiating something).

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Unless I completely misunderstood him, isn't that just what blantyr himself has been saying for a while?

Just so. I do believe there is a great deal of quiet magic which will pass for the most part unnoticed. Then again, not all of it is subtle. The flooding of the Bruinen and Gladriel's mirror aren't really subtle, I think. One knows something is going on.

Such overt magic and the folk that can wield would be rare? Galadriel, Gandalf, the other Istari, Eldrond, Sauron, the Nazgul, barrow wights, Tom Bombadil, Glorfindel… There are a relatively small number of folk that might be fairly blatant in doing things fairly overt. There are likely others that didn't appear in the books, but not a lot. Morthoron suggested a hierarchy of those with more magic than others. I'm entirely with him there.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And talking about RPing in an inn, to emphasize the magic, other characters have to react to it. Like Al reacted to Elin - even though she is only a woman of Gondor (but they are also noted to have this radiating something).

I might quibble this. I can well believe that a Gondorian woman with fairly pure Numenarian blood might well have gifts. They would have a place in Morthoron's hierarchy of those who might use Art. I am less sure that all Gondorian women should radiate sufficient power that a hobbit should pick up on it. I can well believe that if someone uses magic, another person nearby that can use magic might well notice. I would be doubtful that someone who uses no magic can sense someone who isn't currently using magic.

I could well believe the Elin has spent enough time at various southern courts to walk with an elegant posture and speak with a refined accent, if that is her defined background. Al might easily notice this and respond. Still, Aragorn would have at least as strong gifts such as prophecy and healing as Elin, and he can pass unnoticed. Not everyone picks up that Aragorn has gifts.

But I don't know any of the above is canon. I'm open to quotes and counter examples.

Speaking for myself, I don't know that magic has to be noticed in a role playing game. Quite the contrary. In most Middle Earth RPGs the player characters will not be in the same class as Gandalf or the Nazgul. Anything players would be doing would be subtle, might well not be noticed unless one is knowledgable and looking for it.

For example, should there be a brawl at an inn, should the brawlers be injured, a nameless elven minstrel might afterwards quietly sing a song to Este. If one didn't understand the Sindarin lyrics, and didn't know that Este has an aspect of healing, they might give all the credit for rapid recovery to the hobbit healer who comes in with aloe and bandages. As it would be impossible for such a minstrel to prove she deserves any credit for the healing, it might be prudent and wise not to claim any credit.

In my off line game, one of the games within the game is to practice magic without any of the other players noticing. As my character is the closest we have to a magic user, no one other than myself and the game master has paid much attention to the magic rules. Thus, we do quiet little stuff, entirely within the rules, and nobody else might notice or comment on it. This is certainly not be the only way to role play Tolkien magic, but doing it that way keeps me amused and no one gets jealous of the magic using elf.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

OK, that's a point, but in a world populated by elves, dragons, walking trees and other beings and powers disbelieved in by the likes of Ted Sandyman, there's not that much I'd readily shrug off as superstition.

I tend to agree. Again, I like Morthoron's hierarchy of who might use Art and how much power individuals might have. It is not clear to me that there aren't weaker individuals lower on Morthoron's hierarchy doing very small stuff. However, you don't see examples of shaman or wise women using minor spells in the books. It might be plausible to say if one doesn't have at least X amount of Numenarian or elven blood, that there should be no magic use.

I for one would prefer a softer border with more weak mages causing small effects, but this is personal taste not canon.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Quoted for truth. I appreciate your personal angle, blantyr, and I think it can shed an interesting light on some topics, but having Goldie all over the place all the time might become a little tedious after a while.

Acknowledged. I'll try to back off of it some, but sometimes it illustrates the point under discussion.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Unless I completely misunderstood him, isn't that just what blantyr himself has been saying for a while?

Yes, but the way I understood blantyr's posts is that Elves, Numenorians, etc have to do something in order to radiate subtle magic. They don't. It just happens that way.

Originally Posted by blantyr

Not everyone picks up that Aragorn has gifts.

Which is because they don't look for these gifts. They might still sense them, but not understand what they are feeling. It's true, however, that Aragorn often chooses to hide his gifts (mark the words - chooses to hide, not chooses to display; they are there all the time).

Other characters who are not as high as Aragorn also have a similar effect on people. The first one tht comes to mind is Faramir. Imrahil brought cheer to warriors during the siege of Gondor, - well, he has Elvish blood in him, but he's not an Elf. Eowyn gave courage to Merry, but that strength was only revealed in action.

I tend to pay special attention to looks. When people look at each other's faces, there always seems to be something happening. There are too many instances to describe all of them, but here are some notable ones:

-Melian: with her gaze she does wonders. She communicates more with her eyes than with her mouth. Examples: gave confidence to Beren and "awoke" Hurin/told him the truth.

-Arwen looked at Frodo as he and Bilbo left the room, a moment that Frodo remembered for the rest of his life.

-Aragorn: when he looked up, the Breelanders would stop taunting him and the hobbits. There are other instances throughout LOTR.

-Gandalf vs Denethor "duel"

-Faramir: I don't know where to begin. Multiple times with Frodo, Sam, and Gollum (note: Pippin and Sam feel 'something' about him). Heals Eowyn from her darkness and, well, opens her eyes.

-Eowyn:

Originally Posted by The Muster of Rohan

...One looked up glancing keenly at the hobbit. A young man, Merry thought as he returned the glance, less in height and grith than most. He caught the glint of clear gray eyes; and then he shivered, for it came suddenly to him that it was the face of one without hope who goes in search of death

(Eowyn is already dressed as Dernhelm)

And also what I already mentioned - how she gave Merry the courage to stab the WIKI without knowing it.


Even hobbits have this. There's "something Elvish" about Frodo.


All in all, I think that glances are one way to express magic.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I tend to agree. Again, I like Morthoron's hierarchy of who might use Art and how much power individuals might have. It is not clear to me that there aren't weaker individuals lower on Morthoron's hierarchy doing very small stuff. However, you don't see examples of shaman or wise women using minor spells in the books. It might be plausible to say if one doesn't have at least X amount of Numenarian or elven blood, that there should be no magic use.

As Eönwë points out, there's also the Drúedain. (btw, it's "Númenórean", not "Numenarian".)

Originally Posted by G55

Yes, but the way I understood blantyr's posts is that Elves, Numenorians, etc have to do something in order to radiate subtle magic. They don't. It just happens that way.

A good point– of course in the examples you give it's ambiguous– intentionally, I think– whether you're seeing merely a strong will, or a power in action. But you're right that it's rare that Tolkien's Elves (or Númenóreans) cast spells, as such. In contrast, blantyr's Elf-character's use of "subtle magic", it seems, requires her to be casting spells all the time, just unobtrusively:

Originally Posted by blantyr

should the brawlers be injured, a nameless elven minstrel might afterwards quietly sing a song to Este. If one didn't understand the Sindarin lyrics, and didn't know that Este has an aspect of healing, they might give all the credit for rapid recovery to the hobbit healer who comes in with aloe and bandages.

On that note– blantyr, both from your own description and from the sample rules and character sheets I've looked at, it's pretty clear that the makers of "Ambarquenta" have had to do a good deal of tweaking, codifying things that were probably never meant to be codified, and making up details out of whole cloth. I'm not saying they're not trying to be as faithful to the original as they could be and still keep the game playable– it's just that a roleplaying system and a novel simply don't operate the same way. For this reason I remain puzzled as to why you apparently believe you can work backwards and apply the rules of AQ to its source.

That said, it sounds like a perfectly good game and one that no doubt would interest many of us here. Again, why don't you just make a thread about it?

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

A good point– of course in the examples you give it's ambiguous– intentionally, I think– whether you're seeing merely a strong will, or a power in action. But you're right that it's rare that Tolkien's Elves (or Númenóreans) cast spells, as such. In contrast, blantyr's Elf-character's use of "subtle magic", it seems, requires her to be casting spells all the time, just unobtrusively:

"All the time" would be an exaggeration. As I said earlier, I thought long and hard and couldn't think of a single example of her singing with intent in an inn. In a public inn, she sings for the enjoyment of those around her. Outside, in the wild, she is more apt to sing songs devoted to one or another of the Valar, to call protection and growth upon the land.

In the Harry Potter books, if one wants to use magic, one almost always waves a wand and speaks a pseudo latin phrase. I think it safe to say that Harry Potter style magic does involve rote spells. Gandalf sometimes waves his staff when using magic. He sometimes speaks words. (Come back Sauruman!) Tom Bombadil seems always to sing, but the words don't seem rote, formal and fixed. He seems to be ad-libbing. In general, it seems safe to suggest that Tolkien's magic is much more free form and flexible than Rowling's.

And yet, if Gandalf or Bombadil does something, there is often beginning and end. There is generally a brief period where Bombadil is waving his hands and the rain doesn't hit him, or when Gandalf's beam of light drives a Nazgul away. What Gandalf does is different than what Harry does, but not all that much different. The word 'spell' doesn't seem to fit quite as well in Middle Earth as in Hogwart's. I'd be interested if someone were to suggest a different word. Off the top of my head, and even after a look at a thesaurus, I haven't one to propose.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

On that note– blantyr, both from your own description and from the sample rules and character sheets I've looked at, it's pretty clear that the makers of "Ambarquenta" have had to do a good deal of tweaking, codifying things that were probably never meant to be codified, and making up details out of whole cloth. I'm not saying they're not trying to be as faithful to the original as they could be and still keep the game playable– it's just that a roleplaying system and a novel simply don't operate the same way. For this reason I remain puzzled as to why you apparently believe you can work backwards and apply the rules of AQ to its source.

I agree with your characterization of AQ.

The source is subtle, ambiguous and sometimes contradictory. The rules are clear and understandable. One might argue that any clear and understandable rule can't possibly accurately portray Tolkien's magic as the magic isn't clear and understandable.

When reading the AQ rules, I'll often think, yes, that rule reflects how Tolkien wrote this scene, that one, and this third one as well, but in this fourth scene it isn't quite right. I'm assuming others contributing here know LotR roughly as well as I, and generally know the First and Second Age writings far better.

I thought to insert clarity into the conversation, even knowing that the clearer one gets, the more likely it is that someone will find an exception that might be held to invalidate the clarity. It seems many do not appreciate this approach. I'm trying to use other approaches when possible.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by blantyr

"All the time" would be an exaggeration. As I said earlier, I thought long and hard and couldn't think of a single example of her singing with intent in an inn. In a public inn, she sings for the enjoyment of those around her. Outside, in the wild, she is more apt to sing songs devoted to one or another of the Valar, to call protection and growth upon the land..

Some would question an Elf frequenting an inn in the first place, and an Elvish female even less likely. As far as singing to the Valar, your Elf would have to have some association with Aman (Noldor, or at least Sindarin or a Teleri of Cirdan) to even care about the Valar.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Some would question an Elf frequenting an inn in the first place, and an Elvish female even less likely. As far as singing to the Valar, your Elf would have to have some association with Aman (Noldor, or at least Sindarin or a Teleri of Cirdan) to even care about the Valar.

Does anyone recall a female character in the Prancing Pony at Bree? It might be possible to question a female human or even a female hobbit at an inn in the Shire. Middle Earth is quite territorial and segregated. People don't tend to leave the borders of their own realms very much at all, or mix with any but their own kind. The games in the Barrow Downs forums are far less segregated than the books, and Goldie's home game is no different.

Players want to run exotic characters, and many game master relax Tolkien's strict segregation and let people play the character they want where they want.

The characters in my off line game are a hobbit sheep herder of Breeland, a ranger of the north, an elven woodsman of Lindon, a female elven minstrel of Lindon, a knight of Dol Amroth, a human sheriff of Bree, a healer from Bree who trained in the Houses of Healing in Minas Tirith, a dwarf toy maker and warrior, an exiled rider of Rohan, a human merchant from somewhere south of the Shire but northwest of Dunland, and an exiled female rightful heir of a town and estate in Gondor. (Lady Jewel is played by the game master. She's a walking plot hook, an excuse for a major plot line. Don't blame me.) The group met at a mid summer's fair in Bree. They have been helping Breeland and the rangers handle problems resulting from ruffian's coming up the Greenway.

Is it reasonable that such an eclectic group get together? Not really. We were all required to come up with a back story to justify our character's travels. Goldie is a Sindar of the Tower Hills. She learned of the Valar from her love of music driving her to learn all the old songs. She has travelled with wandering companies between Rivendell and the Havens, learning woods craft in the warm months while singing by the fire in the cold. She joined the player character group as she wants to write songs, not just play them. She finds her kin too protective to allow her to live through incidents that will end up needing to be preserved in song.

All of our back stories are similarly plausible, sort of, almost. Collectively? Likely not. I agree with the game master's decision to allow us to generate the characters we want to play, but it admittedly stretches suspension of disbelief. No one dares complain about the other person's character, though. The whole idea of people in Middle Earth going on adventures is just too outlandish. (The hobbit's wife doesn't understand at all. There is a broad understanding that the hobbit gets a first go an any good jewelry we might run across, as otherwise we might lose our best archer.)

It occurs to me that Lake Town or Dale might be good places for mixed groups.

[Galadriel55]

I don't understand a few things here:

a) Goldie was created for the AQ, that doesn't exactly agree with the Downs. Why are you trying to mix the two?

b) I understand that you talk about Goldie to give a personal example. But AQ? It's one thing to discuss "Magic in ME" and another to talk about "Magic in AQ". In this thread we aren't trying to decide what is the best set of rules regarding magic and canonicity in a RPG.

c) Your point with the whole Goldie thing?


You say that "people want to run exotic characters". Maybe you do, but I personally don't. Plus, how is that relevant?

You are trying to say that a Tolkien RPG would be boring without specific/purposeful/whatever magic in it. But then (IMO) it wouldn't exactly be Tolkien. He didn't create characters like spiderman or the like (meaning that you could have inner abilities on the same scale). If he would have, I'd have only half as much respect for him and his works.

Tolkien's works are filled with magic, but it's not "spiderman magic". You yourself said that it is sbtle - but it's subtler than that. You state that one has to do something to be magical (sing, make something, etc), but he doesn't. One could be magical all the time, without singing.

EDIT: xed with your last post

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by blantyr

"All the time" would be an exaggeration. As I said earlier, I thought long and hard and couldn't think of a single example of her singing with intent in an inn. In a public inn, she sings for the enjoyment of those around her. Outside, in the wild, she is more apt to sing songs devoted to one or another of the Valar, to call protection and growth upon the land.

Elves don't need to sing all the time or do anything such to radiate magic all the time. It just radiates from them because they have it, because it's innate - like light comes from the Sun without any particular effort on the Sun's part.

As with the exapmle of Aragorn, sometimes the "magic" is covered. You seem to view it with an allusion of turning on a flashlight every once in a while. I see it differently - covering the light of the flashlight every once in a while.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Elves don't need to sing all the time or do anything such to radiate magic all the time. It just radiates from them because they have it, because it's innate - like light comes from the Sun without any particular effort on the Sun's part.

As with the example of Aragorn, sometimes the "magic" is covered. You seem to view it with an allusion of turning on a flashlight every once in a while. I see it differently - covering the light of the flashlight every once in a while.

Frodo, wearing the ring on Weathertop, was able to see the Nazgûl clearly. At the ford near Rivendell, when he was starting to fade from the Morgul blade wound, he could see Glorfindel as glowing white, and could see the Nazgûl, but Aragorn and the other hobbits could be seen only dimly. When Frodo first wakes at Rivendell, Gandalf conjectures that the Morgul wound might change Frodo, not for ill, but that those with eyes to see could detect that he was more than just a hobbit. He wouldn't glow as bright as Glorfindel, but something would be there to see.

Ambarquenta defines the spell 'sense power.' Sense power will do the above, allow one to sense those who radiate magic. It also allows one to sense enchanted items or spells in progress. By the AQ character generation rules, any elf inclined to learn could sense power, but very very few dwarves, hobbits or ordinary men could do so. I could see a moderately strict game master saying no hobbit or dwarf could learn spells, including sense power.

I am not claiming AQ as a canon source, but I think they got sense power more or less right. Details could certainly be debated. I am not at all certain that it should be all that easy for an elf to learn to sense power, for example.

Anyway, should Frodo put on the Ring and thus gain the ability to sense power, Glorfindel's power would be obvious, while Aragorn's would not be. Take off the Ring, Frodo would no longer be able to sense their magic power, but could sense their inherent nobility. Glorfindel might still beat out Aragorn somewhat, but not nearly by so much. Aragorn might often subdue his true nobility of spirit, but even so Aragorn might look foul but feel fair to the astute observer. Frodo was a pretty good judge of character, picked up a trace of Aragorn's nobility, but that might well be good old hobbit common sense rather than any occult ability. Sam was still dubious.

In short, I would agree that certain people radiate magical power. I would question whether a typical hobbit, dwarf or human would be able to sense it. Also, while those with magical power will often have some form of noble spirit, the link between nobility and occult power is not a fixed lock. There are many with strong honorable characters who can't use spells.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by blantyr

By the AQ character generation rules, any elf inclined to learn could sense power, but very very few dwarves, hobbits or ordinary men could do so. I could see a moderately strict game master saying no hobbit or dwarf could learn spells, including sense power.

How is "sensing power" a spell? And I doubt that Elves learned that many spells - they learned crafts, nature, they became more skilled at things, but not spells.

Anyway, should Frodo put on the Ring and thus gain the ability to sense power,

But does the Ring give the ability to sense power?

There are many with strong honorable characters who can't use spells.

I don't recall too many that do. There are hardly any instances when actual spells are used - the only ones I remember are Gandalf lighting the fire on Caradhras and when wolves attacked them before Moria.

There is also "mellon", but anyone who knew how to say the word could open the Gates with it. It's not a special ability.

Take off the Ring, Frodo would no longer be able to sense their magic power, but could sense their inherent nobility.

The two are often connected. You might also have noticed that Aragorn was the one with the healing powers, and not Glorfindel. The latter also had some skill in that area, true. But still, Aragorn's hands do wonders with athelas; magic.

Glorfindel faced the Nazgul. Aragorn did that, and in addition he looked in the Palantir. That's not really magic, it's willpower. But it is still magical.

In short, I would agree that certain people radiate magical power.

I'd say that all people do, except that some do more or clearer than others.

I would question whether a typical hobbit, dwarf or human would be able to sense it.

If it's "bright" enough. As an example, reread the little chat Frodo had with Sam about magic and Elves in Lothlorien.

Also, while those with magical power will often have some form of noble spirit, the link between nobility and occult power is not a fixed lock.

No, but such power is often passed on by lineage, as is noble spirit. Not always, but often.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Yes, but the way I understood blantyr's posts is that Elves, Numenorians, etc have to do something in order to radiate subtle magic. They don't. It just happens that way.

Which is because they don't look for these gifts. They might still sense them, but not understand what they are feeling. It's true, however, that Aragorn often chooses to hide his gifts (mark the words - chooses to hide, not chooses to display; they are there all the time).

Other characters who are not as high as Aragorn also have a similar effect on people. The first one tht comes to mind is Faramir. Imrahil brought cheer to warriors during the siege of Gondor, - well, he has Elvish blood in him, but he's not an Elf. Eowyn gave courage to Merry, but that strength was only revealed in action.

I tend to pay special attention to looks. When people look at each other's faces, there always seems to be something happening. There are too many instances to describe all of them, but here are some notable ones:

-Melian: with her gaze she does wonders. She communicates more with her eyes than with her mouth. Examples: gave confidence to Beren and "awoke" Hurin/told him the truth.

-Arwen looked at Frodo as he and Bilbo left the room, a moment that Frodo remembered for the rest of his life.

-Aragorn: when he looked up, the Breelanders would stop taunting him and the hobbits. There are other instances throughout LOTR.

-Gandalf vs Denethor "duel"

-Faramir: I don't know where to begin. Multiple times with Frodo, Sam, and Gollum (note: Pippin and Sam feel 'something' about him). Heals Eowyn from her darkness and, well, opens her eyes.

-Eowyn:

(Eowyn is already dressed as Dernhelm)

And also what I already mentioned - how she gave Merry the courage to stab the WIKI without knowing it.

Even hobbits have this. There's "something Elvish" about Frodo.

All in all, I think that glances are one way to express magic.

To me, this is all characterization. Tolkien created some strong characters that can convey personality and feelings to others. There is no need to assume any sort of occult force is in play. Words, facial expression and posture is sufficient. Scenes and characterization such as this can and do take place in stories outside of the fantasy genera in settings where there is no pretense of magic.