Magic in Middle-earth

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I'm open to other words or phrases than "spell craft". I'm just using it on this thread as 'magic' has been defined as something that one doesn't understand. It does seem possible to quibble your opinion on spells. I'll just repeat Neithan's quote from The Fellowship of the Ring...

I am dubious about taking one quote out of this book or that and saying that quote settles an issue. There are too many quotes that can support too many opinions. Still, it seem possible to say that Gandalf uses spell craft. Of course, Gandalf isn't typical. While in general the magic of Middle Earth is subtle to the point that one might not notice it or be able to prove it, Gandalf is one of a few beings who can be rather overt and blatant on occasion.

In the game I'm currently playing, elves practice 'the Art' as opposed to 'sorcery' which is practiced by others. Elves have an intuitive and almost casual attitude towards the Art, while humans need to study lore or receive instruction to learn spells. I'm a bit dubious about this. In the books I haven't seen humans studying lore or apprenticing to more experienced individuals to learn spells.

When referring to "spell craft" I was referring to the efficacy of spells administered by races that are, according to Tolkien, not magic or lacking in sub-creative powers. In the description you provided, Gandalf, a Maia and a member of the Istari, is matching force with a Balrog, another Maia. Inherently, they have such power, as they are of the Ainur; however, this shutting spell is not something that could be taught to a Hobbit, for instance.

In regards to Elves, I would suggest that the subcreative arts are hierarchical, and those most blessed are those Elves who have seen the light of Aman (such as the Noldor). In some cases, the Eldar, or at least those born in Cuiviénen (like Eöl) also exhibit a propensity for subcreaction. This does not necessarily extend to all Elves, or at least the likelihood is that they have considerably less abilities than the Noldor.

In regards to humans, I would say that the Numenoreans, and the line of kings in particular (down to the Dunedain kings such as Aragorn) have exhibited such innate power, particularly in healing and levelling curses, and this may be why Tolkien referred to the Mouth of Sauron as a Black Numenorean, even though that line had been expended several centuries previous to the War of the Ring. Men for the most part, do not exhibit magical propensities.

Dwarves have seeming lost whatever subcreative power they had prior to the War of the Ring (as lamented by both Thorin and Gimli in separate instances).

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

In regards to Elves, I would suggest that the subcreative arts are hierarchical...

All of the above is reasonable.

The author of our rules suggests that orcs and wild men might have shaman. He suggests there might be secret societies in the south and east around Umbar that teach some poor and corrupt variation of wizardry, that the Black Numenarian tradition might not have entirely died out. I won't assert that such allegations are canon. Our game master hasn't used spell casters among the enemy yet, and I won't object if he never does.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Dwarves have seeming lost whatever subcreative power they had prior to the War of the Ring (as lamented by both Thorin and Gimli in separate instances).

I have some wild conjecture on this. One reads that some elves at least reincarnate, while humans do not. Is much said of the dwarves? There are legends that the sons of the various Durins were so much like their fathers that each was said to be the father reborn. I would think there would need to be at least two Durin souls for this to work, as one soul cannot dwell within two bodies at the same time.

It is also said that if one enchants an item, a bit of one's soul or heart is left behind in the item. If one combines these two concepts, if one creates enchanted items, dies, and then reincarnates, the reborn smith would have less to give of himself than his prior incarnation once had.

There must have been sources of power in the early days. For example, if one saw the two trees, or perhaps walked the undying lands, one's soul was strengthened. Also, power is to some degree hereditary. The child has power if the parent had power, sometimes, sort of, though it is not said that childbirth diminishes one's own power.

This might be one perspective on how elves and dwarves diminished over time, how the firstborn faded while men came to dominate.

[Nerwen]

I'm not sure I like the phrase 'psychic powers'. That is more a science fiction phrase than fantasy.

Yes, hence the quotation marks.

Originally Posted by blantyr

I heard a different tale of Nimrodel. There was an article in Tolkiengateway that claims elves can reject the call of Mandos, that they can choose to become ghosts. If fëa and hröa are parted through death, the fëa can linger where it lived. If putting on the Ring allowed Frodo to see into the realm of spirits, might he have put it on and seen Nimrodel?

You mean it's simply Nimrodel's ghost hanging round the stream? Perhaps, though I'd appreciate a source for this– I cannot find this "tale" even at the not-exactly-infallible Tolkiengateway. (The thing about Elves rejecting the call of Mandos is all right, though– it's from Tolkien's later writings, published in "Morgoth's Ring".)

But as a general thing– you can try and explain away individual cases, but it seems hard to me to deny that places in Middle-earth can in themselves be "sacred" or "accursed"– often because of things that happened, or people who lived there. This indeed may be related to "crafting magic".

Originally Posted by blantyr

I have some wild conjecture on this. One reads that some elves at least reincarnate, while humans do not. Is much said of the dwarves? There are legends that the sons of the various Durins were so much like their fathers that each was said to be the father reborn.

Descendants, not actual sons– so there's no such problem as you assume.

According to The Silmarillion, the Dwarves believe they get reincarnated. (Elves, on the other hand, believe Dwarves "return to the earth and the stone of which they were made").

Originally Posted by blantyr

Agreed. I note that the examples you give involve mighty names. I don't know that this sort of naming would work for beings less than Valar or Maia. Still, naming names might bring benefit, might work as something vaguely like prayer.

For any lesser being it's more a matter of conjecture– cf. when Sam "calls" the rope to him by saying Galadriel's name. At least Sam thinks that's what happened; Frodo laughs at him and says it was just a badly-tied knot.

Originally Posted by blantyr

The storm at Caradhras? I had another thought, a wild conjecture. The mountain apparently long had a reputation for cruelty. It is as if some malicious spirit dwelled within the mountain. A balrog for instance? I have also thought that Saruman might have wanted the Fellowship to try to pass the Gap of Rohan. I really don't know.

Hardly a wild conjecture, since your second option's what they went with in the film. But in fact, in the actual book, Caradhras is not associated with any known villain. "His" nature is purposely left mysterious:

"I do call it the wind," said Aragorn. "But that does not make what you say untrue. There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own. Some have been in this world longer than he."

Aragorn isn't omniscient, true, but I'm pretty sure that here he's being used to convey information to the reader. Note that no alternative is given any support– no-one contradicts him saying, no, it has to be Saruman; no-one greets the appearance of the Balrog with "Caradhras!" instead of "Durin's Bane!" I'm sure there'd be some hint if either of these were meant to be the evil power behind Caradhras.

[Galadriel55]

Barazinbar just seems to have a nature of its own. One special mountain. I always left it as that in my mind. A stone with a personality.

We can't say that anyone in particular "shaped" it and left a trce of their spirit inside, because Caradhrass is said to dislike both Elves and Dwarves, and Men weren't that lucky either. Even a wizard did not pass. And where the strong failed, even the hobbits failed.

But why specifically Caradhras? I understand that it was done for the purposes of the story, but why not other mountains as well?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Barazinbar just seems to have a nature of its own. One special mountain. I always left it as that in my mind. A stone with a personality.

We can't say that anyone in particular "shaped" it and left a trce of their spirit inside, because Caradhrass is said to dislike both Elves and Dwarves, and Men weren't that lucky either. Even a wizard did not pass. And where the strong failed, even the hobbits failed.

But why specifically Caradhras? I understand that it was done for the purposes of the story, but why not other mountains as well?

I said often places seem to derive their special aura from people and past events– but that's not the only reason. Some things are just "there"... and that's all you can really say about them. I always found the mysterious "what is it?" nature of Caradhras to be one of the things that give the world a sense of depth.

It really disappointed me that the film version turned it into just Saruman spell-casting. I suppose they thought the original version would be confusing.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

You mean it's simply Nimrodel's ghost hanging round the stream? Perhaps, though I'd appreciate a source for this– I cannot find this "tale" even at the not-exactly-infallible Tolkiengateway. (The thing about Elves rejecting the call of Mandos is all right, though– it's from Tolkien's later writings, published in "Morgoth's Ring".)

Yep. It may just be Nimrodel's ghost. I tried to find the source on this, but wasn't able to retrace. I remember it as someone's opinion, not as a Tolkien canon reference. I'll try to dig a bit more.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But as a general thing– you can try and explain away individual cases, but it seems hard to me to deny that places in Middle-earth can in themselves be "sacred" or "accursed"– often because of things that happened, or people who lived there. This indeed may be related to "crafting magic".

I'd agree with a place taking on personality or emotion if a people lived there long enough, or an extreme event occurred there. (The Dead Marshes might be an example of the latter. Minas Morgul in the early Fourth Age might be another example of a place taking on the character of its inhabitants.) The process could well be related to crafting magic, where a bit of one's spirit might linger. Caradhras? Maybe something started it long ago, but if so we might never know.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Descendants, not actual sons– so there's no such problem as you assume.

I was thinking of Durin I, Durin II, Durin III, etc... I don't think there could only be one soul for all of the Durins.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

For any lesser being it's more a matter of conjecture– cf. when Sam "calls" the rope to him by saying Galadriel's name. At least Sam thinks that's what happened; Frodo laughs at him and says it was just a badly-tied knot.

One might also credit the rope, or the crafts person who made the rope. Don't really know, though.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I was thinking of Durin I, Durin II, Durin III, etc... I don't think there could only be one soul for all of the Durins.

They were descendants of Durin the Deathless, but none of the Durins that followed Durin I were direct descendants (ie., sons) of the previous Durin. The appearances of Durins seem to be generational, with six versions popping up from the 1st through 4th Ages.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I'd agree with a place taking on personality or emotion if a people lived there long enough, or an extreme event occurred there. (The Dead Marshes might be an example of the latter. Minas Morgul in the early Fourth Age might be another example of a place taking on the character of its inhabitants.) The process could well be related to crafting magic, where a bit of one's spirit might linger. Caradhras? Maybe something started it long ago, but if so we might never know.

Another example would be Hollin, where, according to Legolas, the stones still remember the Elves who once lived there.

You know Caradhras is different, though, because there seems to be a real consciousness and purpose behind it, in a way that doesn't apply to the other examples. So I don't know that we can rule out its being inhabited by an actual evil spirit of some kind. There are quite a lot of beings of unknown origin in Middle-earth.

Originally Posted by blantyr

I was thinking of Durin I, Durin II, Durin III, etc... I don't think there could only be one soul for all of the Durins.

Why not?

EDIT:X'd with Morthoron.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Another example would be Hollin, where, according to Legolas, the stones still remember the Elves who once lived there.

I'd like to work the other side of this one. Yes, Hollin is an example of a place where the stones have an echo of a people long gone. What might be interesting is that Legolas was able to read this, while to my knowledge no one else could.

Legolas also read Fangorn forest when he Gimli and Aragorn first came there. It was ancient, there were echoes of places far away where the hearts of the trees were black, and I believe he picked up echoes of the entmoot, hints that the forest was about to explode in wrath against Saruman.

The Fangorn example might not be best understood as reading echoes of occupants long gone, but the mood of the current occupants still living. Is he reading the land or is he reading its current people? Is there a major distinction between the two, or might both be an aspect of elven telepathy?

We have touched on elven telepathy before. We had Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond looking mind to mind just before the Rivendell and Lorien parties went their separate ways after Theoden's funeral. We had Galadriel testing the Fellowship. Galadriel also told Frodo that she knew all of Sauron's mind that pertained to the elves. This is impressive given how Saruman and Denethor came to grief through use of the Palantír.

Frodo also asked Galadriel how it was that when he put on the ring he couldn't read the minds of the other ring bearers. Her response was that he had not tried, that he should not try, that he would have to train himself before he could use that power. This sounds right, but how did she know he had not tried? How deep did she go in Frodo's mind? As with Sauron, does she know all of Frodo's mind that pertains to the elves?

In many fantasy books that deal with telepathy, there is an overt theme of the ethics of using the ability. There are things that are done, and things that are not. In Tolkien's works, if there are ethics, they aren't spoken of explicitly. The impression I get is that Galadriel wouldn't share things she learns this way unless it would be vital to her people or the West. However, I'm starting to get the impression that if knowledge is vital, the notion of mental privacy isn't high on her list of ethical principles?

I'd one other thought. When Frodo reaches the base of Mount Doom, he gets 'pushed.' He gets told to go on now, quickly, or it will be too late. I've always sort of assumed that this was Gandalf nudging him on. Now, I'm not so sure. Galadriel? She is the telepath with a mirror to see, while Gandalf is master of fire and light.

I've a few general observations and questions that others might comment on. Galadriel would be better at telepathy than most anyone else, much much better than the average elf? I suspect her ring would enhance her abilities, while her mirror might enhance her range? Still, she sensed a darkness in Fëanor long before either ring or mirror? She would be very good even without external aids?

I don't know that Legolas would be typical. He is son of a king and might be better at reading the land than others. Do others think his ability to read the land might be associated with elven telepathy, or might it be a unique specialized ability like Aragorn's healing and prophecy? Might telepathy be described as reading another's fëa, whether said fëa is linked to a body, a land, or possibly even enchanted items? Any examples of the last?

While Gandalf on occasion will use wizardly techniques such as gestures or words of power, can anyone think of an occasion where such methods have been associated with elven telepathy? I sort of assume Saruman and the other Istari use gestures and words, but this is an assumption. Are there examples of the use of gestures or words of power being used by anyone but Gandalf?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I'd like to work the other side of this one. Yes, Hollin is an example of a place where the stones have an echo of a people long gone. What might be interesting is that Legolas was able to read this, while to my knowledge no one else could.

Legolas was the only Elf in the Fellowship. Elves are closer to nature, so they communicate on an invisible level.

Originally Posted by blantyr

Legolas also read Fangorn forest when he Gimli and Aragorn first came there. It was ancient, there were echoes of places far away where the hearts of the trees were black, and I believe he picked up echoes of the entmoot, hints that the forest was about to explode in wrath against Saruman.

Again, Elves are closer to nature and can read and understand things inside of it much better that men, hobbits, and Dwarves. Other Elves can do it too. Legolas said at the council that Elves found traces of Gollum-"ghost" amongst the talks of the animals, but couldn't follow because they lead to Dol Guldur.

Originally Posted by blantyr

The Fangorn example might not be best understood as reading echoes of occupants long gone, but the mood of the current occupants still living. Is he reading the land or is he reading its current people? Is there a major distinction between the two, or might both be an aspect of elven telepathy?

As I said before, he's just an Elf. He's also closer to this particular type of nature - trees - that some other Eves (like Cirdan's folk) are.

Originally Posted by blantyr

We had Galadriel testing the Fellowship. Galadriel also told Frodo that she knew all of Sauron's mind that pertained to the elves. This is impressive given how Saruman and Denethor came to grief through use of the Palantír.

Galadriel is more powerful than Denethor. She is the last descendant of the Kings of Noldor in ME.

She kind of plays the role of Melian in the 3rd Age. In The Sil it says about Morgoth that his thought often came to Doriath, but there was foiled by Melian (sorry, I don't have my book with me now, I can't give the exact quote). Both are equally impressive - a High Elf beating a Maia, and a Maia beating a Vala.

Originally Posted by blantyr

Frodo also asked Galadriel how it was that when he put on the ring he couldn't read the minds of the other ring bearers. Her response was that he had not tried, that he should not try, that he would have to train himself before he could use that power. This sounds right, but how did she know he had not tried? How deep did she go in Frodo's mind? As with Sauron, does she know all of Frodo's mind that pertains to the elves?

Mt guess is that if Frodo would have tried, the result would have been obvious - either on Nenya or on Frodo.

Originally Posted by blantyr

I've a few general observations and questions that others might comment on. Galadriel would be better at telepathy than most anyone else, much much better than the average elf?

I'd assume so, because she is a High Elf of noble birth.

Originally Posted by blantyr

Still, she sensed a darkness in Fëanor long before either ring or mirror?

Intuition. Closeness with nature. Ability to "tell" one's character (that is not unique to her).

Originally Posted by blantyr

She would be very good even without external aids?

I believe so.

Originally Posted by blantyr

I don't know that Legolas would be typical. He is son of a king and might be better at reading the land than others. Do others think his ability to read the land might be associated with elven telepathy, or might it be a unique specialized ability like Aragorn's healing and prophecy?

Neither. He's just an Elf, and all elves are close to nature. Some may be closer to the Sea, others - to trees, but all feel it much keener than other races.

Originally Posted by blantyr

Are there examples of the use of gestures or words of power being used by anyone but Gandalf?

The WK screams am incantation three times before the Gate of Minas Tirith was broken. Aragorn sings something over the blade on Weathertop (I can't remember - was if Frodo's or the Nazguls?).

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I was thinking of Durin I, Durin II, Durin III, etc... I don't think there could only be one soul for all of the Durins.

The Dwarves, at least, believed there was (only one Durin). <quote from Apdx A>

Five times an heir ... received the name of Durin. He was indeed held by the Dwarves to BE (Durin) the Deathless that returned; for they have many strange tales and beliefs concerning themselves and their fate in the world.

While this is only presented as something the Dwarves "believe", we know Tolkien did allow for Elvish reincarnation, and Dwarvish fate is something we know very little about - so it doesn't seem (to me) all that far fetched that one special Dwarvish Fea might remain within Ea and be reborn (reincarnated) multiple times. Why not?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

The Dwarves, at least, believed there was (only one Durin). <quote from Apdx A>While this is only presented as something the Dwarves "believe", we know Tolkien did allow for Elvish reincarnation, and Dwarvish fate is something we know very little about - so it doesn't seem (to me) all that far fetched that one special Dwarvish Fea might remain within Ea and be reborn (reincarnated) multiple times. Why not?

Yes, and Tolkien's (very) late writings point to the fea of Durin returning to an uncorrupted body.

Strange as it might seem: the special connection between a particular fea and its particular hroa looks to have became important to Tolkien: he thus abandoned Elves being reborn (as children) as a form of reincarnation, because they would have 'new' bodies... and JRRT seemingly found an idea to avoid this with the bearded folk as well.

See Last Writings, The Peoples of Middle-Earth, for late thoughts on this notion.