Magic in Middle-earth

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Blantyr

Especially as he was not present at Helm’s Deep, I’d think that the explosions were physics rather than spell craft.

Can you really draw a distinction, sharp or otherwise, between the two? It seems to me that, in a world where magic exists, magic is physics. That is, the physics of such a world, which must be very different from that of ours, includes the magic.

I might also distinguish between a need to have firm rules and well understood definitions of spell craft in a role playing game while it is quite possible to leave things ambiguous in a novel.

I don't know if I would say that Tolkien's magic does not have firm rules. It seems to me, rather, that the difference between RPG magic and Tolkien's magic is (besides the generally less subtle nature of the former) is that the rules of magic in an RPG are, by necessity, explicit, whereas the rules of magic in a literary world like Middle-earth can remain as vaguely defined as the author likes. That doesn't mean that magic doesn't follow definite rules in Middle-earth; it just means that we don't know them.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

This has always been the reason I have cordially despised Middle-earth based games. The amount of levelling required to even out different races in regards to inherent abilities (or lack thereof) renders the games unbelievable from a canonic sense, and the ultimately rare imbued objects are suddenly as common as copper pennies.

I agree with you for the most part, but I don't think a Middle-earth based game must necessarily go to those non-canonical extremes. I ran a Middle-earth game once using modified Dungeons and Dragons rules and, while I wouldn't say it was completely succesful, I do think I managed to avoid un-Tolkienian excesses of magic.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Can you really draw a distinction, sharp or otherwise, between the two? (Spell craft and physics.) It seems to me that, in a world where magic exists, magic is physics. That is, the physics of such a world, which must be very different from that of ours, includes the magic.

The above is a plausible definition of 'physics.' If you were to insist upon it, I might have to define a phrase such as 'mundane physics' so that I can legitimately discuss what is and what is not mag... spell craft. I really prefer to avoid Humpty Dumpy redefinitions of words, or extended discussions of what a word should properly mean. Thus, if someone questions my use of a word, I'll use a phrase in place of the word to make it clearer what I intend to say. Thus, I'm using 'spell craft' in instead of 'magic' to avoid an unusual definition of 'magic', only to have someone challenge my use of the term 'spell craft.'

I'd prefer not to get carried away with this sort of thing.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I don't know if I would say that Tolkien's magic does not have firm rules. It seems to me, rather, that the difference between RPG magic and Tolkien's magic is (besides the generally less subtle nature of the former) is that the rules of magic in an RPG are, by necessity, explicit, whereas the rules of magic in a literary world like Middle-earth can remain as vaguely defined as the author likes. That doesn't mean that magic doesn't follow definite rules in Middle-earth; it just means that we don't know them.

I'd agree with the above. I was attempting to make this point. I'd tend to believe Tolkien had a pretty good idea of how things worked, but didn't let the fetters of consistency get too much in the way of telling a good story. Thus, I can read a Gandalf quote where he talks about spells while still respecting opinions that Middle Earth 'magic' often might not be spell based.