the elessar

[Ivriniel]

I'm highly disinclined to imagine that the Olorin we knew as Gandalf, "...known as Olorin in the West...", bore any Elessar anywhere as a pre-Istari Maian Spirit. It's too obscure, though a theoretical, I suppose. Low likelihood one.

He did not manufacture it, and irrespective of the competing narratives on the darned Elessar we knew he did not manufacture it. As a lesser artefact (certainly not as groovy or with as much goo goo as the Palantiri or The Rings), it makes much more sense that it was an Elfy making. That has implications for inferences about it, its keeper, who held it, distributed it and why.

We knew Galadriel had it, TA. Celebrimbor gifted it to her, in one of the variations of its origin while he stalked her to gettiton with him. I believe he asked for a lock of her hair, in fact, which she denied him, (which on an aside, adds to the significance of Gimli's request. Looks like good ole Galadriel kept her affections for Durin's Folk in tact, after SA). Then there was all that stuff about Celebrimbor and Galadriel hanging out together in the Ost-In-Edhil as they worked towards preserving Elvendom in Middle Earth. He knew she wanted Elvendom-y things in Middle Earth and so, during his stalking, made the Elessar. Love buying - creepy man, erm, I mean Elf . Seems like a consistent narrative thread, at that time he was hot for her. As I understood the emphasis in why it was crafted (a pre-Ring assay in attempts to do what The Rings did, but better), it is also consistent with the improvements upon the Elessar in the Gwaith-i-Mirdain's artefacts--the Rings of Power. That kind of narrative consistency is absent from competing models of inference.

That's why the competing narrative, with an odd name--Enerdhil--in an obscure footnote, firstly, and then the retina-burning idea of Celebrimbor in Gondolin. Not. Once Celebrimbor is tied to Feanor's line, there's no way in any abstraction that his presence makes sense in Gondolin. The Seven Sons of Feanor were to Gondolin (the estrangement between Fingolfin, his line, and Feanor's) what chalk is to cheese, which I think is what Galin is emphasising.

[Mithalwen]

Wasn't it Feanor whom Galadriel refused a lock of hair?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Wasn't it Feanor whom Galadriel refused a lock of hair?

It's been a while since I re-read. I'll go check UFT and my other tomes.....cheers

[Galin]

Yes it was Feanor [The Shibboleth of Feanor] who was refused by Galadriel... concerning the Nerwenian hair matter.

Another possibility is that Olórin took ship to Edhellond in the Second Age. Not that I necessarily would choose version A over B, but again this merely allows a way to step around the question of Nenya in the Third Age.

Granted A notes that the 'years' of her exile were wearing heavy on Galadriel, but I think there is still plenty of years in the Second Age for this, before Numenor fell. Another thing that threw me a bit before was the brief statement that Olórin had arrived with the Elessar out of the West, as if referencing only one trip; but that too seems vague enough to me.

And yes I think Celebrimbor the Feanorean was a later idea than the text of the Elessar, which is why I plug Enerdhil back in as the Elf from Gondolin without Celebrimbor. Again we are dealing with a still private [to Tolkien] text, not necessarily updated after Celebrimbor's change to a Feanorean [although there was some revision regarding Galadriel's ban, for example].


With respect to the first version of the two competing Elessar tales, Hammond and Scull (Reader's Guide) also note that, in comparison to what was already published: '... the tale seems to suggest that there was a breach of trust, in that Galadriel did not keep the Elessar for the one destined to receive it'...

... because in The Lord of the Rings Galadriel said that she had given the stone to her daughter. In the second version Tolkien explicitly refers to Galadriel giving the stone to her daughter, so it doesn't seem like he had forgotten this. I suppose Galadriel still could be said to have 'handed it on when the time came' as technically the jewel had come to her once again to give to Aragorn (if we look at Gandalf's statement more as a prediction), though even so, she handed it on before Elessar came to receive it.

I noted this in the thread: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=15599

[cellurdur]

Like with the Princes of Dol Amroth, Tolkien left two versions. I personally now favour the version of Celebrimbor making a second Elessar.

The question of Gandalf turning up in the Second Age would raise all sorts of problems. At that point Sauron had not yet grown so powerful that the West could not defeat him unassisted.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Like with the Princes of Dol Amroth, Tolkien left two versions. I personally now favour the version of Celebrimbor making a second Elessar.

Is it like this however [it might be but I can't recall right now]?

In other words, are there two internal versions of something relating to the Princes of Dol Amroth?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

Is it like this however [it might be but I can't recall right now]?

In other words, are there two internal versions of something relating to the Princes of Dol Amroth?

Well I assume they are 'internal'. We have the one story where the Princes are descendants of Imrazor and Mithrellas.

Then we have the other version where the princes are close relatives to Elendil and he personally raises them to the rank of 'prince'. This is the version I tend to favour, but we have two accounts, which though are not definitely conflicting like the case with the Elessar are not harmonious and cannot really be forced to fit together.