Numenoreans attacking the Valar

[Vultur]

If the Valar are so incredibly powerful, why did they need Eru's help to fight off the Numenoreans?

The herald of Manwe says to Feanor (in reference to his calling Morgoth a Vala) that he could never overcome any of the Valar, "not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art." Surely no mortal Man could come close to the power of Feanor, and the Valar (not being purely physical beings) coud easily avoid assault by armies. So, why couldn't the Valar have done it themselves? Or are they really that weak?

I'm imagining the scene in Valinor:

AR-PHARAZON: Ha! I claim this land! Come out and fight, you cowards!

ELVES OF VALINOR: Aaagh! *flee*

VALAR: Oh crap! Clearly we can't hope to fight a bunch of upstart mortals! Yo, Manwe, can you get Eru on the line?

AR-PHARAZON: ...come on? Is anybody home?

MANWE: Help! Mayday! SOS!

ERU: Oy! What sort of poor excuses for Powers are you? Can't you guys handle my Younger Children yourselves?

MANWE: ...no.

ERU: Ah, well, ok then. Guess I have to do everything myself. *buries Ar-Pharazon in rockslide, sinks Numenor, changes shape of world, etc.*

...OK, I'm sure it wasn't like that, but what was the deal there?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I don't believe they "needed" the help.
Ar-Pharazon's actions were so egregious
I think they, in effect, needed a ruling/approval
by Eru to take the step of destroying Numenor
and most of the Numenoreans.

[Pitchwife]

I think the Valar felt that they didn't have the authority to violently repel Ar-Pharazon's invasion, as that very probably would have included killing quite a number of Ilúvatar's Children - which none of them (excepting Morgoth) has ever dared.
So Manwe's call to Ilúvatar was probably rather something like: "Look what these brats of yours are doing! Don't you think you should deal with this problem yourself?"

[LadyBrooke]

To throw out a metaphor (which I'm a big fan of) consider Eru as the parents in the equation, the Valar as the eldest siblings, Elves in the middle, and Men as the slightly spoiled bratty youngest sibling (Note: I don't think all youngest siblings are brats).

Now if you're the eldest sibling, and you notice the brat is beating the door to the room you and your middle sibling are in and trying to beat you all up, if you're smart you're not going to simply go over and beat the twerp over the head because then you'll be in trouble. No, what you do is make sure that you look like the victim here. Viola! Problem solved without you getting in trouble, and possibly making you look like a model child.

[Vultur]

OK, thanks, that makes sense.

(I had always wondered if the herald of Manwe was stretching the truth a bit with the 'none of the Valar etc. etc.' quote...)

[the phantom]

Didn't Tolkien say that Ar Pharazon and the Numenoreans had put together the greatest army the world had ever seen?

Now, wouldn't that include any army that Melkor ever had? And the army that came from Valinor to finally put down Angband?

If so, how can we assert that the Valar were capable of dealing with the situation?

And as far as the chap that said "For none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Ea", he was full of crap. A Vala is not some special unkillable race. A Vala is just an Ainu, and if an Ainu becomes incarnate then he can be killed.

Fingolfin wounded Melkor's foot permanently. Thorondor scarred him. He was open to harm. So the fact is Feanor and the Noldor were perfectly able to overcome Melkor. It could have been done. They came darn close a couple times. Perhaps they would have succeeded if Mandos hadn't doomed them to failure.

If the herald had said "For none of the Valar will thou overcome..." it would've been more accurate.

Unless of course he was referring to the fact that Melkor and his works and stain could never be completely eradicated by Feanor, but seeing as not even the Valar could do that it hardly seems like a point worth making.

[Findegil]

Some seperated points:
About Elrond and Maglor: Elrond was at the time of the war porbably old enough to take his own decissions and go on with independant actions. Such as taking part in a gathering of forces when his forster-father held back.

And as far as the chap that said "For none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Ea", he was full of crap. A Vala is not some special unkillable race. A Vala is just an Ainu, and if an Ainu becomes incarnate then he can be killed.

This seems wrong to me in two ways. The Valar in Valinor were not incarnated. Thus Ar-Pharazôn and his army might have had a hard time to got hold on them. And as Sauron did examplify, it does not kill an Ainu if you kill the body of his incarnation.

Anyway as often the quote is not perfectly clear as we have to define first what "overcome" means. And seeing the history of Arda the quote was never falsified: Non of the Valar was ever overcome by any of the children of Eru without help from other Ainur.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And as far as the chap that said "For none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Ea", he was full of crap. A Vala is not some special unkillable race. A Vala is just an Ainu, and if an Ainu becomes incarnate then he can be killed.

Fingolfin wounded Melkor's foot permanently. Thorondor scarred him. He was open to harm. So the fact is Feanor and the Noldor were perfectly able to overcome Melkor. It could have been done. They came darn close a couple times.

But the Valar still in Valinor weren't incarnate. They couldn't have been attacked in the first place. Melkor was stuck in his incarnate form (as the Morgoth) permanently, due to his corruption of Arda, and couldn't change or renew his form. Even when Gandalf, a mere Maia had his body killed, he could return as if nothing had happened (he was allowed to by the Valar, but the power to do so was in himself).

If the Valar did choose to make themselves incarnate they could make themselves into almost unbeatable foes. And if they ever got injured they could just change body. It's not part of them the same way that it is for the Children of Illuvatar. I'm sure even if Morgoth's incarnate form got killed, he would still be alive (if you can call it that), but would just be a weak spirit, unable to incarnate himself again. Morgoth stayed in his body because that was the only body he could have.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Findegil

The Valar in Valinor were not incarnated. Thus Ar-Pharazôn and his army might have had a hard time to got hold on them. And as Sauron did examplify, it does not kill an Ainu if you kill the body of his incarnation.

It depends upon the degree of incarnation. The Valar never did more than wrap themselves in physical forms, where as Melkor became incarnate to the point that he could be chained up and even executed. Sauron as well manifest himself physically (the Ring) to the point that he could be destroyed beyond repair.

Morgoth was most certainly vulnerable to physical attack, therefore the business of telling Feanor that he couldn't possibly overcome him was a bit silly. Elves killed Balrogs didn't they? And weren't Balrogs the same form of being? We don't read about Balrogs popping back to life immediately after being killed.

But as far as the Valar (Manwe and them) I agree that they could've just gone to spirit mode and Ar Pharazon wouldn't have been able to touch them. But what good is that? Ar Pharazon and the Numenoreans still could've slain all the Elves in Valinor and occupied everything. Sure, you can argue that a spirit can't be slain, but I can argue back that a spirit can't swing a sword, so I'm not sure how much good that does.

Originally Posted by Steve

I'm sure even if Morgoth's incarnate form got killed, he would still be alive (if you can call it that), but would just be a weak spirit, unable to incarnate himself again.

So you agree that Feanor and them could have rendered Morgoth pretty much impotent. If you reduce him to a weak spirit no longer capable of taking over the world, then I'd say you overcame him.

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by the phantom

But as far as the Valar (Manwe and them) I agree that they could've just gone to spirit mode and Ar Pharazon wouldn't have been able to touch them. But what good is that? Ar Pharazon and the Numenoreans still could've slain all the Elves in Valinor and occupied everything. Sure, you can argue that a spirit can't be slain, but I can argue back that a spirit can't swing a sword, so I'm not sure how much good that does.

Begging your pardon, but doesn't the very spirit-ness of the Valar make them powerful? I mean, over nature. Melian, a Maia, was able to defend her kingdom by her maze. Imagine if (how many were the Valar and Valier again?) and infinite more Maiar use their spirit powers over nature and such to defend their ground. And the Elves. One mustn't forget that many of them were born under the light of the Trees, which made them extra tougher.

I know you can all argue that the Elves might not be that skilled in war as they were in peace and the arts, but the host of the Valar that came to Beleriand an age before Ar Pharazon must have had some pretty good swords at least.

[Pitchwife]

Lindale says it: power over nature. The Valar shaped the face of Arda. When you can build mountains, rule the Ocean, control tempests and what not else, you don't need swords and armies to deal with a mad king and a couple of hundred thousand (or even a million) warriors - ifyou are allowed to. And whether or not the Valar and Maiar could be killed , Ar-Pharazôn and his lot certainly could.

[littlemanpoet]

The Valar had enough power. This was not a matter of power, but of authority. The Numenoreans were Children of Iluvatar; the Valar had no right over their fate; so Manwe rightly stepped aside and asked Iluvatar to deal with His children Himself. Case closed.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath

But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others new-come out of the east, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.

There were a lot of Men marching with Morgoth in the War of Wrath, and the Valar didn't mind killing them at all, so it cannot have been a matter of lack of authority.

I think the phantom is right. Ar-Pharazôn's army was the largest that ever existed. (Keep in mind, just before it did not defeat Sauron's army, which was at the peak of its strength at that time, but made it flee without battle! It instilled more fear in them than Sauron did.) It must have been strong enough to, if not defeat the Valar, to at least inflict damage on Valinor that was beyond what the Valar were willing to suffer, maybe beyond the Valar's ability to heal.

Tolkien is unclear why the Valar called upon Eru, he only states the fact. But that also means it is never stated that the Valar were powerful enough to defeat Pharazôn and his army and therefore must have had a different reason to do so. Case not closed.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

There were a lot of Men marching with Morgoth in the War of Wrath, and the Valar didn't mind killing them at all, so it cannot have been a matter of lack of authority.

They were part of the army of Morgoth. I think that if it's Vala against Vala, then they're allowed to fight, but it's a little bit unfair for the super-powerful beings that the Valar are to to obliterate mere Men. Also, remember that in the War of Wrath there were probably dragons, and depending on how you look at it, possibly Balrogs to fight, not to mention other Maiar. And let's not forget that this was Morgoth, and he may have given his men power.

Also, they were trying to capture Morgoth, so if anyone stood in their way then it's their problem, so to speak. They could abandon if they want to. The Valar at least probably gave those who wanted to a chance to retreat. Anyway, in the War of Wrath, they just killed the warriors that were going to fight anyway, whereas with Numenor, everyone was killed.

Thirdly, I think that Manwe wasn't sure to what extent he should go: whether to just stop the boats coming, whether to destroy the boats, or whether he should go father. So he just did the sensible thing and let Eru sort it out, instead of doing something that might have caused problems later. Manwe probably by now knew that he didn't really understand evil, so he passed over the decision to someone who could, the same way it should have been when Gandalf left Saruman to his own knowledge of the Ring(s).

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Lindale

Begging your pardon, but doesn't the very spirit-ness of the Valar make them powerful?

No. Spirits can't impact the physical world as much as an incarnate. That's why Morgoth and Sauron became incarnate to the point that they did- to gain greater power over things.

And the example you cite, Melian- notice that she is an Ainu that became fully incarnate. She ceased to be a floaty-spirit-thing. You think she could've done the whole girdle/fence had she not become incarnate?

And the Valar's control over nature- it doesn't do them that much good against the Numenoreans, does it? I mean, what are they going to do, make the Pelori fall down on them? For one, I don't think it was such a simple thing to do (they can't just snap their fingers and make it happen- it's not magic). In addition, they'd kill lots of their own by doing something so insane. They might destroy the whole land. And I'd bet they couldn't do all that much on the ocean either. The armada was larger than they could possibly sink, and the Numenoreans were amazing mariners.

Now, I agree with LMP that it is possible that the Valar might have indeed lacked the authority to fight the Numenoreans (though you'd think they had the right to defend their land). But I don't agree that it is a given that they had the power. According to the text, it was the greatest force of war ever. Ever.

And don't give me the "but they were Elves" argument. Elves were not necessarily greater warriors than men. Turin for instance, was said to be as agile as any Elf, but stronger, so it's not a given that Elves are faster than men. What probably is a given is that the Numenoreans were bigger and stronger than nearly all the Elves in Valinor.

Mac's point is very good. Isn't it telling that Sauron's army was so scared they didn't even try to fight them? And that Numenorean army wasn't even as great as the one sent to Valinor.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Now, I agree with LMP that it is possible that the Valar might have indeed lacked the authority to fight the Numenoreans (though you'd think they had the right to defend their land). But I don't agree that it is a given that they had the power. According to the text, it was the greatest force of war ever. Ever.

I believe it was simply a matter of the Valar surrendering authority to Eru because they were not allowed to kill Children of Illuvatar, plain and simple. If you remember, Eonwe forbade anyone to harm Maglor and Maedhros, even though they committed murder in the camp of the Valar after the War of Wrath.

It was not in the Valar's power to destroy the Numenoreans. And if you think about it, what does it matter if they had the greatest army ever assembled? If it were, in fact, within the Valar's scope of authority to destroy the Numenoreans, then all that had to be done was for Ulmo to unleash Osse on the Numenorean ships before they landed. A cataclysmic tsunami was all that was necessary to drown the whole shebang.

In any case, the Numenorean army was not 'technically' killed by Eru either. They were buried under hills, and there to await the final battle. It would seem to be much like the King of the Dead and the Oathbreakers never truly 'passing away' until they fulfilled their oath. Sort of a suspended animation, if you like.

[littlemanpoet]

I think Morthoron makes some good points. Consider, Ulmo himself could probably wipe out the entire armada with a tidal wave.

But regarding the authority of the Valar. The Numenoreans are a special case of Human in Middle Earth. Having just reread LotR (for the 6th time ), I was struck by how many times and ways Tolkien makes this point, be it in reference to Aragorn, to the Dunedain of the north, or to Imrahil and is kin from Dol Amroth. All of this to say that the Numenoreans were not typical of all men. The Valar themselves were the givers of Numenor to the Dunedain (correct me if I'm wrong). This placed them in a somewhat trickier (dicier?) position in regard to their authority vis a vi Iluvatar's. Therefore, the Valar did have some right relative to the land on which the Numenoreans dwelt. Nevertheless, these still were Children of Iluvatar. So the Valar had, one could say, a tight little ethical bind to figure they're way through. Instead of make a wrong choice, they made the best choice and deferred the matter to Iluvatar.

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And don't give me the "but they were Elves" argument. Elves were not necessarily greater warriors than men. Turin for instance, was said to be as agile as any Elf, but stronger, so it's not a given that Elves are faster than men. What probably is a given is that the Numenoreans were bigger and stronger than nearly all the Elves in Valinor.

I knew you'd get that argument.

My point is that, yes these Numenoreans are probably the toughest Men ever, maybe comparable to Turin too, but the Elves of Valinor have an edge, or at least those who were born under the Two Trees. There's this bit with those who survived Helcaraxe great travail must endure before they give up, and those nourished by the Two Trees (or maybe just being in Valinor) had "strength of the ancient world, such as those possessed by those nourished in Valinor."

Now I'm not for arguing about melees or what, but your point with Melian being incarnate before she did her Girdle, I'm sure the Valar can do so too. Did they not raise the Mountains of Valinor when the Noldor went away? Etc.

Anyway, I'm also for opting that this subject is too ambiguous, and that Eru was called by Manwe not because they lacked strength, but because they deemed it best to just approach him for too great a thing for their hands.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

In Letter 156, referring to this very situation, Tolkien said:

The Valar had no real answer to this monstrous rebellion -- for the Children of God were not under their ultimate jurisdiction: they were not allowed to destroy them, or coerce them with any 'divine' display of the powers they held over the physical world. They appealed to God, and a catastrophic 'change of plan' occurred.

The only ones of the Ainur who do destroy the Children and coerce them with "divine" displays of power are those who have fallen into evil ways: Melkor, Sauron, Saruman, the Balrogs, etc. I do not know of any instance in which one of the "non-fallen" Ainur did so (maybe it could be argued that Osse did so with his stormy nature, but I don't know that he did so with the express purpose of destroying any of the Children). Melkor could be hurt by the weapons of the Children because he had invested so much of his power into the dominance of the physical world, he became irrevocably tied to his incarnate body (this is discussed somewhere in Morgoth's Ring, I believe).

As to the matter of the Numenorean armada being "the greatest army the world had ever seen," I feel this has to be viewed with something of a grain of salt -- rather like the "Last Alliance of Elves and Men." The latter occurred at the end of the Second Age -- and yet there was another alliance of Elves and Men during the Third Age, to fight the Witch King of Angmar. It could be said, perhaps, that the Alliance in the Second Age was the last time actual kingdoms of Elves and Men would ally themselves against a common foe, but I find a distinct ambiguity in the use of the term "last." Just as I find some feeling of ambiguity in the term "greatest." How does one define greatness -- or, perhaps more specifically, how did the chronicler of the event define it? If it was written by a Man (one of the faithful who survived, perhaps), then they could not have been alive to see any of the armies that fought outside their limited lifespan, and thus draw comparisons. If it was written by an Elf, then it's unlikely he saw Ar-Pharazon's armada with his own eyes, since Elves had been banned from Numenor some years before. To top it off, how did anyone in Middle-earth know what had happened in Valinor? After the world was sundered, there was no travel between Aman and ME, and precious little communication (unless it came through Cirdan's contact with Ulmo and Osse, or later, the Istari). Who told the writer of the account precisely what the Valar had done?

Well, I'm not really arguing with it. I'm just pointing out that there are a number of seemingly contradictory or inexplicable things in these tales. Sometimes you just have to take what is said with that grain of salt, and let it go. There's no way to resolve all the myriad issues an enquiring mind can conjure up.

Hey, post 300. Cool!

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

In any case, the Numenorean army was not 'technically' killed by Eru either. They were buried under hills, and there to await the final battle. It would seem to be much like the King of the Dead and the Oathbreakers never truly 'passing away' until they fulfilled their oath. Sort of a suspended animation, if you like.

He probably didn't want to see them "beyond the edges of Arda" (or whatever the quote is to say where Men go after they die) after what they'd done.

Were they like the Army of the dead, or were they just frozen in time? Because I'm sure that being stuck in a dark underwater cavern for a few thousand years is a pretty bad punishment.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

As to the matter of the Numenorean armada being "the greatest army the world had ever seen," I feel this has to be viewed with something of a grain of salt -- rather like the "Last Alliance of Elves and Men." The latter occurred at the end of the Second Age -- and yet there was another alliance of Elves and Men during the Third Age, to fight the Witch King of Angmar. It could be said, perhaps, that the Alliance in the Second Age was the last time actual kingdoms of Elves and Men would ally themselves against a common foe, but I find a distinct ambiguity in the use of the term "last." Just as I find some feeling of ambiguity in the term "greatest." How does one define greatness -- or, perhaps more specifically, how did the chronicler of the event define it? If it was written by a Man (one of the faithful who survived, perhaps), then they could not have been alive to see any of the armies that fought outside their limited lifespan, and thus draw comparisons. If it was written by an Elf, then it's unlikely he saw Ar-Pharazon's armada with his own eyes, since Elves had been banned from Numenor some years before. To top it off, how did anyone in Middle-earth know what had happened in Valinor? After the world was sundered, there was no travel between Aman and ME, and precious little communication (unless it came through Cirdan's contact with Ulmo and Osse, or later, the Istari). Who told the writer of the account precisely what the Valar had done?

Perhaps you're not arguing it, but you have raised the questions. Not only that, but you've suggested the answers also. Cirdan, Elrond, Galadriel, and the Eagles of Manwë are enough to ensure between them that the truth would be known by the wise. If you read the Akallebeth account in The Sil, it is quite apparent that this armada was of an incredible scale. "Like an archipelago of a thousand small islands". So maybe it would have taken a couple of tidal waves and not just one.

[Mnemosyne]

So maybe it would have taken a couple of tidal waves and not just one.

Yeah, but what if it were a really, really, really big tidal wave?

[Macalaure]

How big a tidal wave is Ulmo able to make? Keeping in mind that the War of Wrath lasted 40 years or so, I have a strong feeling even the Valar couldn't have ended the attack within a day, and much of the good Valinorean china would have been broken in the meantime.

Originally Posted by Ibri

I do not know of any instance in which one of the "non-fallen" Ainur did so

See my example above. Men fought alongside Morgoth in the War of Wrath. Even if no Ainu personally killed any of those Easterlings etc., they commanded the forces. Maybe this is just an inconsistency on the Prof's part, though.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

See my example above. Men fought alongside Morgoth in the War of Wrath. Even if no Ainu personally killed any of those Easterlings etc., they commanded the forces. Maybe this is just an inconsistency on the Prof's part, though.

Quite possibly. Although the Ainur didn't march alone. As I recall, the Vanyar and the Noldor still in Aman went with them, and fought; the Teleri provided the ships to take them, and sailed them, but did not participate in the fighting. (Which also explains the matter of how Elrond "saw the splendor of their banners"; the ships carrying the Elves had to land somewhere... but that's another thread, isn't it? ) It would seem strange if the Amanian Elves did all the fighting with the Eruhini on Melkor's side, but it would really be the only way to remain consistent with Tolkien's assertion that the Ainur did not have the authority to destroy them.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Osse's sinking the seven ships off Nevrast with all the
elves save Voronwe dying seems to come very
close to a valar directly dispatching some of the
Children of Iluvatar when simply by not causing
an uber storm they would have been saved.

[the phantom]

Ulmo make a giant tidal wave?

Yeah, kill all of the Elves in Alqualonde and Tol Eressea and any settlements on the coast of Middle-Earth. I'm sure the Valar would support that plan.

Plus, I'm not sure how easy it was to do something like that, let alone do lots of them one right after the other. And make no mistake, it would've taken some really nasty waves to take care of the greatest mariners the world has ever seen. Lots of waves. Very big ones. And miles and miles of them.

What I'm saying is, I don't think it would've been easy at all to overcome the Numenoreans. I don't think Ar Phar and his lads would've killed any of the Valar or anything like that (because the Valar never shackled themselves to their bodies like Morgoth in his effort to gain greater power), but I do think they could've broken pretty much everything breakable and killed pretty much everything killable before they were stopped. All in all, I'm saying that we should not take lightly or dismiss the greatest force of war ever in Middle Earth.

I like that letters quote, Ibrin. The business of Ainu imposing their will upon the Children of Eru pops up again and again. Saruman versus Gandalf, right?

And wow, your name is long.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Ulmo make a giant tidal wave?

Yeah, kill all of the Elves in Alqualonde and Tol Eressea and any settlements on the coast of Middle-Earth. I'm sure the Valar would support that plan. .

Well, it seems the Valar silently supported Eru's plan to submerge Numenor under a great wave, so yeah. It seems the storm Eru whipped up had no effect on Alqualonde or Tol Eressea, nor did it do much damage to the coasts of Middle-earth. It's amazing what gods can do -- that whole omnipotence thing.

Again, if it were under the Valar's authority to punish the Numenoreans, then their ships would've been submerged as they were leaving port. They wouldn't even have made it to within sight of the Undying Lands. Osse delighted in storms, and when for a brief time he allied with Morgoth, the Belegaer Sea was utterly unsafe for ships.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by me

Ulmo make a giant tidal wave?

Yeah, kill all of the Elves in Alqualonde and Tol Eressea and any settlements on the coast of Middle-Earth. I'm sure the Valar would support that plan.

Originally Posted by Morth

Well, it seems the Valar silently supported Eru's plan to submerge Numenor under a great wave, so yeah. It seems the storm Eru whipped up had no effect on Alqualonde or Tol Eressea, nor did it do much damage to the coasts of Middle-earth. It's amazing what gods can do -- that whole omnipotence thing.

It didn't impact Alqua or TE because it was Eru doing it. He's just a teensy bit more powerful than the Valar.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by the phantom

All in all, I'm saying that we should not take lightly or dismiss the greatest force of war ever in Middle Earth.

Hmm, I wonder if the chronicler might've meant the greatest force of war ever raised by Men in Middle-earth?

I like that letters quote, Ibrin. The business of Ainu imposing their will upon the Children of Eru pops up again and again. Saruman versus Gandalf, right?

That was part of the job description of the Istari, wasn't it? To guide the free peoples in their resistance to Sauron, but not to dominate or force them.

And wow, your name is long.

Yeah, but it's a safe bet that it's a name nobody else will ever want it.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by the phantom

It didn't impact Alqua or TE because it was Eru doing it. He's just a teensy bit more powerful than the Valar.

It wasn't that the Valar were incapable of fighting the Numenoreans, Mr. P., rather it was their inability to do so based on their level of authority in regards to the Children of Iluvatar.

Tulkas laughing, Orome in his wrath and Ulmo towering out of the sea would give even Sauron pause, had he bothered to get out of the boat. And speaking of Sauron, he led the Numenoreans onward because he knew they were going to be destroyed one way or another. You must remember that the Valar did not even fight in the War of Wrath; instead they sent as leader-by-proxy Eonwe the Herald, a Maia, and hosts of the Vanyar and Noldor (and most likely other Maiar as well). This army not only crushed Morgoth's forces (including Balrogs, dragons and trolls), but destroyed Beleriand so utterly that it sunk into the sea. Read the passage in the Silmarillion regarding how vast Morgoth's army was, yet still it was defeated by an army of Valinor that did not include the Valar in battle.

So, in reiteration, I don't think that defeat at the hands of the Numenoreans was the Valar's concern. Not at all. If anything, this is one more instance of Valaric interference that went awry. Much like in the 1st Age when the Valar dragged the elves off to Valinor so that they would be 'safe' (a move that many elves eventually begrudged), Numenor was once again an artificial attempt at safeguarding the 'chosen' Children of Iluvatar that backfired on the meddlesome Valar. Strange folk, the Valar: one moment they are interfering, passing dooms and whatnot, and the next you don't hear from them for an Age. Very inconsistent. In any case, Eru, irritated that he had to tinker with his divine plan, made damn sure there would be no more chosen people, and wiped Numenor off the map -- a lesson not only for the remaining Numenoreans, but also for the Valar. Their interference thereafter (because they couldn't help but continue meddling -- it was their foible), was reduced to sending the Istari -- not to trade blow for blow with Sauron, but inspire the free peoples to fight instead.

[Mnemosyne]

And speaking of Sauron, he led the Numenoreans onward because he knew they were going to be destroyed one way or another.

Yes, but I thought that not even Sauron expected the entire continent to be wiped out. Fleet, yes, Numenor itself, no.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

Yes, but I thought that not even Sauron expected the entire continent to be wiped out. Fleet, yes, Numenor itself, no.

Yes, Sauron often had a bad habit of underestimating his enemies. Like for instance, never considering in his darkest nightmares that someone might actually want to destroy his ring.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

You must remember that the Valar did not even fight in the War of Wrath; instead they sent as leader-by-proxy Eonwe the Herald, a Maia, and hosts of the Vanyar and Noldor (and most likely other Maiar as well). This army not only crushed Morgoth's forces (including Balrogs, dragons and trolls), but destroyed Beleriand so utterly that it sunk into the sea.

The Valar might not have participated in battle themselves, but their powers were clearly exerted. Elves and Orcs and Dragons are not able to destroy Beleriand, neither are, I daresay, mere Maiar, nor Morgoth alone, at this point in his existence.

The word "lesson" made me remember that one thread alatar revived last year (I especially liked Squatter's #71).

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

If anything, this is one more instance of Valaric interference that went awry. Much like in the 1st Age when the Valar dragged the elves off to Valinor so that they would be 'safe' (a move that many elves eventually begrudged), Numenor was once again an artificial attempt at safeguarding the 'chosen' Children of Iluvatar that backfired on the meddlesome Valar. Strange folk, the Valar: one moment they are interfering, passing dooms and whatnot, and the next you don't hear from them for an Age. Very inconsistent. In any case, Eru, irritated that he had to tinker with his divine plan, made damn sure there would be no more chosen people, and wiped Numenor off the map -- a lesson not only for the remaining Numenoreans, but also for the Valar. Their interference thereafter (because they couldn't help but continue meddling -- it was their foible), was reduced to sending the Istari -- not to trade blow for blow with Sauron, but inspire the free peoples to fight instead.

This doesn't quite sit right with me. From my reading, the Vanyar are considered to be the most blessed of all the Elves because they journeyed west and stayed. So this bit of "interference" doesn't seem to have been a bad thing. That some Elves begrudged the invitation of the Valar may say at least as much about these Elves as it does about the Valar.

I grant that both the invitation to the Elves and the creation of Numenor were in part to "save" these two groups from the shadow of Morgoth; but is that a bad thing?

As to not hearing from them for an Age, whose fault was that? Was it not because the Numenoreans fell to craving deathlessness?

And are you sure you are being fair by using the rather derotagory term, "meddling"? Did they not have the right and responsibility as the assigned caretakers of Aman to do precisely that? What was it about their "meddling" that was an evil? or a weakness?

And was Eru "irritated" at the Valar? Where do you get that from the Sil? And was his motivation so that there would be no more chosen people? Please give evidence.

Granted, the Valar appear to have learned hard lessons by the 3rd Age and therefore only sent the Five Istari, but can you really support your assertions with evidence from Tolkien's writings?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

This doesn't quite sit right with me. From my reading, the Vanyar are considered to be the most blessed of all the Elves because they journeyed west and stayed. So this bit of "interference" doesn't seem to have been a bad thing. That some Elves begrudged the invitation of the Valar may say at least as much about these Elves as it does about the Valar.

I suppose it is a matter of personal taste. The Vanyar were the most blessed? Why, because they sat at the bottom of Taniquetil and adored Manwe with endless blind praise? What did they accomplish? They seem rather dull, don't they? I'll take Feanor any day over a bunch of righteous brown-nosers.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I grant that both the invitation to the Elves and the creation of Numenor were in part to "save" these two groups from the shadow of Morgoth; but is that a bad thing?

Anytime one corrals folks for their own good, no good can come of it. It seems to me the major failing of the Valar was that they did not adequately eradicate Morgoth and his minions. They botched it on several occassions. And after each war with Morgoth, they left the people of Middle-earth alone to muddle through the mess the Valar left behind. Sauron managed to elude them twice, and the Valar ignored the fact, and basically ignored the struggling Children of iluvatar for huge stretches of time. Very sloppy in my opinion.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

As to not hearing from them for an Age, whose fault was that? Was it not because the Numenoreans fell to craving deathlessness?

The Valar allowed Sauron to consolidate his power after Morgoth's defeat in the War of Wrath (end of the 1st Age) until they sent the Istari in the 3rd Age. That is an entire age of indolence! The Numenorean's search for immortality has nothing to do with the Valar's silence. They did the same thing in the 1st Age, only begrudgingly aiding Middle-earth when Earendel brought them a silmaril as a bribe.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

And are you sure you are being fair by using the rather derotagory term, "meddling"? Did they not have the right and responsibility as the assigned caretakers of Aman to do precisely that? What was it about their "meddling" that was an evil? or a weakness?

See above. Like overly maternal or paternal parents, they restricted the elves and alloted them a few mean acres in Valinor. A rebellion of the sort that occurred was inevitable among creative and fiercely freedom-loving folk like the Noldor. Then to top it off, while they were coddling the Eldar, the Valar left mortal men all alone in the infancy of their race so that they could fall more readily under the dominion of Morgoth and his successor. It makes little sense, and their uncertainty moving forward is evidently a weakness.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

And was Eru "irritated" at the Valar? Where do you get that from the Sil? And was his motivation so that there would be no more chosen people? Please give evidence.

I was being facetious. But you have to admit, Eru went beyond merely punishing Ar-Pharazon and his army. He wiped Numenor off the map. Tolkien doesn't deal with Eru's motivation in behaving in such an arbitrary and all-encompassing manner, but one can derive a certain sense of wrath in Iluvatar that is not characteristic of the patient and benign, but still omnipotent, symphony conductor we beheld during the Ainulindalë. It seems he corrected an error on the part of the Valar, and from then on the Valar only dealt with Middle-earth through intermediaries (ie., the Istari).

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Granted, the Valar appear to have learned hard lessons by the 3rd Age and therefore only sent the Five Istari, but can you really support your assertions with evidence from Tolkien's writings?

When I have time, I'll delve a bit further.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I suppose it is a matter of personal taste. The Vanyar were the most blessed? Why, because they sat at the bottom of Taniquetil and adored Manwe with endless blind praise? What did they accomplish? They seem rather dull, don't they? I'll take Feanor any day over a bunch of righteous brown-nosers.

I was seeing it from their point of view rather than the reader's. The Vanyar have it best. However, I grant you that the Noldor are far more interesting to read about.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Anytime one corrals folks for their own good, no good can come of it. It seems to me the major failing of the Valar was that they did not adequately eradicate Morgoth and his minions. They botched it on several occassions. And after each war with Morgoth, they left the people of Middle-earth alone to muddle through the mess the Valar left behind. Sauron managed to elude them twice, and the Valar ignored the fact, and basically ignored the struggling Children of iluvatar for huge stretches of time. Very sloppy in my opinion.

It appears to me that you would have your cake and eat it too. On one hand you bemoan the meddling of the Valar, and on the other, you bemoan them leaving Middle Earth alone. You can't have it both ways, my good sir.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

It appears to me that you would have your cake and eat it too. On one hand you bemoan the meddling of the Valar, and on the other, you bemoan them leaving Middle Earth alone. You can't have it both ways, my good sir.

I was referring to two separate issues; therefore, I can have my cake with ice cream topped with hot fudge. ;p

The Valar's main fault is the haphazard manner in which they dealt with Morgoth and then Sauron, and I would suggest it was indeed their primary responsibility to secure Middle-earth against their evil encroachment so that the Children of Iluvatar could live their lives in peace. Had they managed to keep up pressure on the the two immortal baddies, there would have been no need to seclude the elves or the Numenoreans afterward. But it seems the Valar ran hot and cold: one minute they were hot for the chase, the next they sat on their celestial thumbs. Pretty poor stewards of Middle-earth in my estimation.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

The Valar had enough power. This was not a matter of power, but of authority. The Numenoreans were Children of Iluvatar; the Valar had no right over their fate; so Manwe rightly stepped aside and asked Iluvatar to deal with His children Himself. Case closed.

agreed! The symbolic gulf that can be imagined to separate the power resources(both formal authority and informal might) of the Ainur in comparison to the Children of the One is probably on par with the vast interstellar distances which separate planetary systems orbiting separate stars... As the consistent cohesion of the material substances of Arda depends upon the presence of the Ainur, we can surmise that their Order exercises a total governance over the organization of these physical substances, probably at the quantum level and other dimensions of space-time to which we do not presently have scientific access even in our late modern Age. To say nothing of their unmatched understanding of the psychological makeup of both Elves, Men, and Dwarves. They could easily do away with the bodies of any number of Menfolk without expending significantly their own inherent strength. The issue is the "legal" right to dominate and destroy utterly the Children, which the One has not delegated to them.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I wonder if the wholesale destruction of Beleriand was caused by the Hosts of the West, or rather by Morgoth? It would seem to me that Morgoth's nihilistic insanity, and the power of his original being dispersed throughout Arda's fabric, would be entirely consistent with him "going nuclear" and annihilating great chunks of real estate in an effort to thwart his enemies.

[littlemanpoet]

Whereas I'm sympathetic with the notion that the Valar ought not to be faulted for the destruction of Beleriand, is it realistic (within the confines of Tolkien's cosmos) to hold that Morgoth had enough power by this time to pull off such a destruction?