Numenoreans attacking the Valar

[Macalaure]

How big a tidal wave is Ulmo able to make? Keeping in mind that the War of Wrath lasted 40 years or so, I have a strong feeling even the Valar couldn't have ended the attack within a day, and much of the good Valinorean china would have been broken in the meantime.

Originally Posted by Ibri

I do not know of any instance in which one of the "non-fallen" Ainur did so

See my example above. Men fought alongside Morgoth in the War of Wrath. Even if no Ainu personally killed any of those Easterlings etc., they commanded the forces. Maybe this is just an inconsistency on the Prof's part, though.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

See my example above. Men fought alongside Morgoth in the War of Wrath. Even if no Ainu personally killed any of those Easterlings etc., they commanded the forces. Maybe this is just an inconsistency on the Prof's part, though.

Quite possibly. Although the Ainur didn't march alone. As I recall, the Vanyar and the Noldor still in Aman went with them, and fought; the Teleri provided the ships to take them, and sailed them, but did not participate in the fighting. (Which also explains the matter of how Elrond "saw the splendor of their banners"; the ships carrying the Elves had to land somewhere... but that's another thread, isn't it? ) It would seem strange if the Amanian Elves did all the fighting with the Eruhini on Melkor's side, but it would really be the only way to remain consistent with Tolkien's assertion that the Ainur did not have the authority to destroy them.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Osse's sinking the seven ships off Nevrast with all the
elves save Voronwe dying seems to come very
close to a valar directly dispatching some of the
Children of Iluvatar when simply by not causing
an uber storm they would have been saved.

[the phantom]

Ulmo make a giant tidal wave?

Yeah, kill all of the Elves in Alqualonde and Tol Eressea and any settlements on the coast of Middle-Earth. I'm sure the Valar would support that plan.

Plus, I'm not sure how easy it was to do something like that, let alone do lots of them one right after the other. And make no mistake, it would've taken some really nasty waves to take care of the greatest mariners the world has ever seen. Lots of waves. Very big ones. And miles and miles of them.

What I'm saying is, I don't think it would've been easy at all to overcome the Numenoreans. I don't think Ar Phar and his lads would've killed any of the Valar or anything like that (because the Valar never shackled themselves to their bodies like Morgoth in his effort to gain greater power), but I do think they could've broken pretty much everything breakable and killed pretty much everything killable before they were stopped. All in all, I'm saying that we should not take lightly or dismiss the greatest force of war ever in Middle Earth.

I like that letters quote, Ibrin. The business of Ainu imposing their will upon the Children of Eru pops up again and again. Saruman versus Gandalf, right?

And wow, your name is long.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Ulmo make a giant tidal wave?

Yeah, kill all of the Elves in Alqualonde and Tol Eressea and any settlements on the coast of Middle-Earth. I'm sure the Valar would support that plan. .

Well, it seems the Valar silently supported Eru's plan to submerge Numenor under a great wave, so yeah. It seems the storm Eru whipped up had no effect on Alqualonde or Tol Eressea, nor did it do much damage to the coasts of Middle-earth. It's amazing what gods can do -- that whole omnipotence thing.

Again, if it were under the Valar's authority to punish the Numenoreans, then their ships would've been submerged as they were leaving port. They wouldn't even have made it to within sight of the Undying Lands. Osse delighted in storms, and when for a brief time he allied with Morgoth, the Belegaer Sea was utterly unsafe for ships.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by me

Ulmo make a giant tidal wave?

Yeah, kill all of the Elves in Alqualonde and Tol Eressea and any settlements on the coast of Middle-Earth. I'm sure the Valar would support that plan.

Originally Posted by Morth

Well, it seems the Valar silently supported Eru's plan to submerge Numenor under a great wave, so yeah. It seems the storm Eru whipped up had no effect on Alqualonde or Tol Eressea, nor did it do much damage to the coasts of Middle-earth. It's amazing what gods can do -- that whole omnipotence thing.

It didn't impact Alqua or TE because it was Eru doing it. He's just a teensy bit more powerful than the Valar.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by the phantom

It didn't impact Alqua or TE because it was Eru doing it. He's just a teensy bit more powerful than the Valar.

It wasn't that the Valar were incapable of fighting the Numenoreans, Mr. P., rather it was their inability to do so based on their level of authority in regards to the Children of Iluvatar.

Tulkas laughing, Orome in his wrath and Ulmo towering out of the sea would give even Sauron pause, had he bothered to get out of the boat. And speaking of Sauron, he led the Numenoreans onward because he knew they were going to be destroyed one way or another. You must remember that the Valar did not even fight in the War of Wrath; instead they sent as leader-by-proxy Eonwe the Herald, a Maia, and hosts of the Vanyar and Noldor (and most likely other Maiar as well). This army not only crushed Morgoth's forces (including Balrogs, dragons and trolls), but destroyed Beleriand so utterly that it sunk into the sea. Read the passage in the Silmarillion regarding how vast Morgoth's army was, yet still it was defeated by an army of Valinor that did not include the Valar in battle.

So, in reiteration, I don't think that defeat at the hands of the Numenoreans was the Valar's concern. Not at all. If anything, this is one more instance of Valaric interference that went awry. Much like in the 1st Age when the Valar dragged the elves off to Valinor so that they would be 'safe' (a move that many elves eventually begrudged), Numenor was once again an artificial attempt at safeguarding the 'chosen' Children of Iluvatar that backfired on the meddlesome Valar. Strange folk, the Valar: one moment they are interfering, passing dooms and whatnot, and the next you don't hear from them for an Age. Very inconsistent. In any case, Eru, irritated that he had to tinker with his divine plan, made damn sure there would be no more chosen people, and wiped Numenor off the map -- a lesson not only for the remaining Numenoreans, but also for the Valar. Their interference thereafter (because they couldn't help but continue meddling -- it was their foible), was reduced to sending the Istari -- not to trade blow for blow with Sauron, but inspire the free peoples to fight instead.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by the phantom

All in all, I'm saying that we should not take lightly or dismiss the greatest force of war ever in Middle Earth.

Hmm, I wonder if the chronicler might've meant the greatest force of war ever raised by Men in Middle-earth?

I like that letters quote, Ibrin. The business of Ainu imposing their will upon the Children of Eru pops up again and again. Saruman versus Gandalf, right?

That was part of the job description of the Istari, wasn't it? To guide the free peoples in their resistance to Sauron, but not to dominate or force them.

And wow, your name is long.

Yeah, but it's a safe bet that it's a name nobody else will ever want it.