Question for the Sindarin experts: is Meril still valid? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

William Cloud Hicklin · 12-04-2014, 12:54 PM

While Meril certainly could be either Q or S, don't forget that nearly all Silmarillion names are given in Noldorin -> Sindarin form. Prior to the Great Linguistric Shift* this was perfectly normal; afterwards T had to ret-con an explanation.

In the (pre-Shift) Epilogue it's quite clearly Noldorin as is the rest of the letter; in the Shibboleth T is explicitly discussing Quenya-speaking Noldor in Aman and uses both their Quenya and (retrospective) Sindarin names, but never tells us which Meril is supposed to be.

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*The point in the early 50's, first manifested in the 'linguistic excursus' to the Grey Annals, where Tolkien abandoned the conception dating back to or before the Lost Tales where the Second Language or "Noldorin" had evolved from Quenya in Valinor and then among the Exiles in Middle-earth, and made it "Sindarin" instead.

Galin · 12-04-2014, 02:42 PM

Heheh... that's why I cheated when I wrote my: '... but apparently was Noldorin or Sindarin enough for the King's Letter' because I couldn't remember when the letter was written with respect to the shift.

Arvegil145 · 09-09-2015, 04:22 AM

meril (rose) is valid in Sindarin, but what would be the Quenya equivalent?

Another thing: what would be the proper name of Meril-i-Turinqui from the Lost Tales in light of the development of Tolkien's linguistic material

- meril is glossed as "flowers" in the Lost Tales
- turinq(u)i is glossed as "queen" in the Lost Tales

But what about the hyphens before and after "i" in the name of Meril-i-Turinqi

In the later mythology meril means rose, and tári means queen.

My question is: how would that name be updated to Quenya?

William Cloud Hicklin · 09-09-2015, 06:40 AM

I'm afraid that what you're asking, here and in the parallel post, is for something that hasn't yet been written: a comparative philology of BoLT-era Gnomish and Qenya relative to post-LR Sindarin and Quenya. One would really have to have available a full set of linguistic "laws" covering the evolution of the Elvish tongues in Tolkien's mind over some six decades.

This much at least we do know: nearly all of the names and words in BoLT are Qenya except for those (relatively) few which are explicitly Gnomish, as in the Fall of Gondolin.

Arvegil145 · 09-09-2015, 08:25 AM

Well...why not start a forum-offshoot concerned primarily with linguistic material (not now of course, 27th century would do

)

I don't know how well-versed are you in the languages (certainly better than I), but if you are indeed, could you be so kind to propose some changes in a thread I started not while ago.http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=18935

Thank you in advance!

jallanite · 09-09-2015, 10:05 PM

Tolkien was a writer of fiction. His Elvish languages were fictional. They were at first a private invention as a hobby, and then developed, so far as they were developed, as background material for the fiction he wrote.

There is no way in which any fictional language can be automatically updated. Forms in any fictional language depend on whatever the author of the language invents and on whatever rules the inventor creates. Tolkien never set down anything like a complete grammar of either Quenya or Sindarin. And Tolkien might at any time change any of his rules, or invent a new rule.

In letter 347 in Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien occurs:

The names in the line of Arthedain are peculiar in several ways; and several though S. in form, are not readily interpretable. But it would need more historical records and linguistic records of S. than exist (sc. than I have found time or need to invent!) to explain them.

The same is true for many other oddities of the Elvish languages.
Arvegil145 asks, “meril (rose) is valid in Sindarin, but what would be the Quenya equivalent?”

I see no reason to believe that the Quenya cognate would not also be *meril, but see no reason to think that such a Quenya form existed, or necessarily had the same meaning as its Sindarin cognate. Tolkien gives several cases where a supposed cognate form does not exist in the other Eldarin language or exists with a different meaning.

Arvegil145 asks, “But what about the hyphens before and after "i" in the name of Meril-i-Turinqi?”

Hyphens are elsewhere used by Tolkien to indicate that the hyphenated form is a single name in the form presented. The form i is in later Quenya translated ‘the’ in the poem Namárië in the phrase i falmalinnar ‘the foaming waves-many-upon (pl.)’ So Meril-i-Turinqi might be literally translated as ‘Flowers, the Queen of’. Again, this is only a guess.

Read the essay http://www.elvish.org/articles/EASIS.pdf for the disgust that such guesses have raised in one commentator on Tolkien’s Elvish.

Arvegil145 · 09-10-2015, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jallanite

Tolkien was a writer of fiction. His Elvish languages were fictional. They were a first a private invention as a hobby, and then developed, so far as they were developed, as background material for the fiction he wrote.

There is no way in which any fictional language can be automatically updated. Forms in any fictional language depend on whatever the author of the language invents and on whatever rules the inventor creates. Tolkien never set down anything like a complete grammar of either Quenya or Sindarin. And Tolkien might at any time change any of his rules, or invent a new rule.

In letter 347 in Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien occurs:

The names in the line of Arthedain are peculiar in several ways; and several though S. in form, are not readily interpretable. But it would need more historical records and linguistic records of S. than exist (sc. than I have found time or need to invent!) to explain them.

The same is true for many other oddities of the Elvish languages.
Arvegil145 asks, “meril (rose) is valid in Sindarin, but what would be the Quenya equivalent?”

I see no reason to believe that the Quenya cognate would not also be *meril, but see no reason to think that such a Quenya form existed, or necessarily had the same meaning as its Sindarin cognate. Tolkien gives several cases where a supposed cognate form does not exist in the other Eldarin language or exists with a different meaning.

Arvegil145 asks, “But what about the hyphens before and after "i" in the name of Meril-i-Turinqi?”

Hyphens are elsewhere used by Tolkien to indicate that the hyphenated form is a single name in the form presented. The form i is in later Quenya translated ‘the’ in the poem Namárië in the phrase i falmalinnar ‘the foaming waves-many-upon (pl.)’ So Meril-i-Turinqi might be literally translated as ‘Flowers, the Queen of’. Again, this is only a guess.

Read the essay http://www.elvish.org/articles/EASIS.pdf for the disgust that such guesses have raised in one commentator on Tolkien’s Elvish.

Thanks for the input - but what, for example, would be an "updated" version of, say, "Tavrobel" (I have been tempted to replace with "Taurobel"), or Gereth and Evranin (and Evromord), and such from the "Lost Tales"

One more question - what would be a Quenya translation of "Queen of Roses" (like, for example, Elentári translates as "Queen of Stars")

12-04-2014, 12:54 PM	#1
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	While Meril certainly could be either Q or S, don't forget that nearly all Silmarillion names are given in Noldorin -> Sindarin form. Prior to the Great Linguistric Shift* this was perfectly normal; afterwards T had to ret-con an explanation. In the (pre-Shift) Epilogue it's quite clearly Noldorin as is the rest of the letter; in the Shibboleth T is explicitly discussing Quenya-speaking Noldor in Aman and uses both their Quenya and (retrospective) Sindarin names, but never tells us which Meril is supposed to be. ------------------ The point in the early 50's, first manifested in the 'linguistic excursus' to the Grey Annals, where Tolkien abandoned the conception dating back to or before the Lost Tales where the Second Language or "Noldorin" had evolved from Quenya in Valinor and then among the Exiles in Middle-earth, and made it "Sindarin" instead. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.* Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 12-04-2014 at 12:59 PM.

12-04-2014, 02:42 PM	#2
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	Heheh... that's why I cheated when I wrote my: '... but apparently was Noldorin or Sindarin enough for the King's Letter' because I couldn't remember when the letter was written with respect to the shift. Last edited by Galin; 12-04-2014 at 04:00 PM.

09-09-2015, 06:40 AM	#4
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	I'm afraid that what you're asking, here and in the parallel post, is for something that hasn't yet been written: a comparative philology of BoLT-era Gnomish and Qenya relative to post-LR Sindarin and Quenya. One would really have to have available a full set of linguistic "laws" covering the evolution of the Elvish tongues in Tolkien's mind over some six decades. This much at least we do know: nearly all of the names and words in BoLT are Qenya except for those (relatively) few which are explicitly Gnomish, as in the Fall of Gondolin. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

09-09-2015, 10:05 PM	#6
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	Tolkien was a writer of fiction. His Elvish languages were fictional. They were at first a private invention as a hobby, and then developed, so far as they were developed, as background material for the fiction he wrote. There is no way in which any fictional language can be automatically updated. Forms in any fictional language depend on whatever the author of the language invents and on whatever rules the inventor creates. Tolkien never set down anything like a complete grammar of either Quenya or Sindarin. And Tolkien might at any time change any of his rules, or invent a new rule. In letter 347 in Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien occurs: The names in the line of Arthedain are peculiar in several ways; and several though S. in form, are not readily interpretable. But it would need more historical records and linguistic records of S. than exist (sc. than I have found time or need to invent!) to explain them. The same is true for many other oddities of the Elvish languages. Arvegil145 asks, “meril (rose) is valid in Sindarin, but what would be the Quenya equivalent?” I see no reason to believe that the Quenya cognate would not also be *meril, but see no reason to think that such a Quenya form existed, or necessarily had the same meaning as its Sindarin cognate. Tolkien gives several cases where a supposed cognate form does not exist in the other Eldarin language or exists with a different meaning. Arvegil145 asks, “But what about the hyphens before and after "i" in the name of Meril-i-Turinqi?” Hyphens are elsewhere used by Tolkien to indicate that the hyphenated form is a single name in the form presented. The form i is in later Quenya translated ‘the’ in the poem Namárië in the phrase i falmalinnar ‘the foaming waves-many-upon (pl.)’ So Meril-i-Turinqi might be literally translated as ‘Flowers, the Queen of’. Again, this is only a guess. Read the essay http://www.elvish.org/articles/EASIS.pdf for the disgust that such guesses have raised in one commentator on Tolkien’s Elvish. Last edited by jallanite; 09-24-2015 at 01:21 PM.