Question for the Sindarin experts: is Meril still valid?

[jallanite]

I don’t have a clue what you are talking about.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by jallanite

I don’t have a clue what you are talking about.

Edain is the Sindarin equivalent of Quenya Atani.

What would be the Sindarin and Quenya equivalents to the names (not all of them) found in the "Lost Tales"?

[Arvegil145]

I also ask because I am revising The Cottage of Lost Play (for my own mirth) and The Ruin of Doriath (actually, revisiting it).

Thank you.


P.S. I don't know much about languages, so please forgive me for my ignorance. Also, for what reason is Littleheart (son of Bronweg) named in that manner?

[jallanite]

You are quite at liberty to revise “The Cottage of Lost Play” for non-commercial reasons, as far as I am concerned.

But basically trying to ‘update’ Tolkien’s Qenya and Gnomish appears to me to be futile. We do not even know what Tolkien intended most of the names to mean and therefore have no way of deciding whether those names even need translating. If by “updating” you mean, what would Tolkien have updated these names to if he were updating them in 1971 and wished them to appear in 1971 Quenya and 1971 Sindarin, then the answers you have been given seem to me to be all you will get: nobody no matter how great their linguistic knowledge knows or could reasonably guess how Tolkien would have updated the names, save for the Tolkien of 1971.

As Orphalesion has indicated (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpos...46&postcount=8) Tolkien would probably have replaced the name of Lindo’s wife Vairë by some other name, because giving her the same name as one of the Valier would have seemed disrespectful. Which other name? I don’t know, nor does anyone I believe.

Tolkien writes in “The Cottage of Lost Play” that Littleheart “sailed in Wingilot with Eärendel in that last voyage wherein they sought for Kôr.”

Yet in Tolkien’s last-written full account of Eärendil’s voyage to Tirion his mariner companions in Vingilot are named as Falathar, Airandir, and Erellont and it is implied that all three are Men, not Elves.

Tolkien writes in The Book of Lost Tales Part II (HoME 2), page 148:

Here is set forth by Eriol at the teaching of Bronweg’s son Elfrith [emended from Elfrinniel] or Littleheart (and he was so named for the youth and wonder of his heart) ….

Christopher Tolkien writes on page 201, “this is the only place where the meaning of the name ‘Littleheart’ is explained.”

[Arvegil145]

Thank you for your substantial answer.

I DO realize that many of the names in the Lost Tales did not bear any meaning, or if they did little is known about it.

But if their etymology is obscure or nonexistent I would still like (since you appear to know much about the linguistic material) to have your advice on what names could be kept from Tolkien's early writings that do not contradict the later development of Sindarin or Quenya. For example (as I have written before):

- Gereth
- Evranin
- Nielthi
- Ilfiniol
- Tavrobel (studying its etymology, I have somewhat naively rendered it to "Taurobel")
- Bodruith
- Valwë
- Tulkastor
- Fankil
- Naimi

What do you make of these?

P.S. Could Voronwë in the later texts still have a son? It seems to me unlikely, but it might be possible (somehow).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

If you really think you can take down a windmill or two, then the only approach that might, sort of, work would be by "translation out and in:" analyze the meanings of BOLT nomenclature insofar as is possible using the Gnomish and Qenya Lexicons (published in Parma Eldalamberon 11 and 12) supplemented by the Early Quenya Fragments (PE 14) and the Name-list to The Fall of Gondolin, Si Qente Feanor and "Names and Required Alterations" connected with The Cottage of Lost Play (PE 15), and then re-translate back into post-LR Sindarin and Quenya attested forms or regular derivations from attested roots. Of especial value here might be Tolkien's "Words, Phrases and Passages in various tongues in The Lord of the Rings" published in PE 17. As a general guide Jim Allan's Introduction to Elvish is still very useful, although published before HME.

Avoid like the plague the various "Neo-Sindarins" and "Neo-Quenyas" peddled by certain parties, especially the Sudarin concocted for the movies. You're creating neo-Elvish yourself, no need to make it exponential.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

If you really think you can take down a windmill or two, then the only approach that might, sort of, work would be by "translation out and in:" analyze the meanings of BOLT nomenclature insofar as is possible using the Gnomish and Qenya Lexicons (published in Parma Eldalamberon 11 and 12) supplemented by the Early Quenya Fragments (PE 14) and the Name-list to The Fall of Gondolin, Si Qente Feanor and "Names and Required Alterations" connected with The Cottage of Lost Play (PE 15), and then re-translate back into post-LR Sindarin and Quenya attested forms or regular derivations from attested roots. Of especial value here might be Tolkien's "Words, Phrases and Passages in various tongues in The Lord of the Rings" published in PE 17. As a general guide Jim Allan's Introduction to Elvish is still very useful, although published before HME.

Avoid like the plague the various "Neo-Sindarins" and "Neo-Quenyas" peddled by certain parties, especially the Sudarin concocted for the movies. You're creating neo-Elvish yourself, no need to make it exponential.

The problem is, I have no clue whatsoever about the linguistic material of Tolkien - and to take the names from the Lost Tales (along with their etymology) and "update" them, so to speak, to Quenya and Sindarin - I am not up for the task.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

But if their etymology is obscure or nonexistent I would still like (since you appear to know much about the linguistic material) to have your advice on what names could be kept from Tolkien's early writings that do not contradict the later development of Sindarin or Quenya.

None of the names you list cause any phonetic difficulties in either later Quenya or Sindarin, including Tavrobel. That does not mean that Tolkien would have considered the names valid in later Quenya or Sindarin for other reasons, or would not have.

For example Tolkien says of the name Glorfindel on page 379 of The Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12), bolding mine:

The name is in fact derived from the earliest work on the mythology: The Fall of Gondolin, composed in 1916-17, in which the Elvish language that ultimately became that of the type called Sindarin was in a primitive and unorganized form, and its relation with the High-elven type (itself very primitive) was still haphazard. It was intended to mean ‘Golden-tressed’,⁴ and was the name given to the heroic ‘Gnome’ (Ñoldo), a chieftain of Gondolin, who in the pass of Cristhorn (‘Eagle-cleft’) fought with a Balrog [> Demon], whom he slew at the cost of his own life.

Its use in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends now referred to as The Silmarillion, which escaped reconsideration in the final published form of The Lord of the Rings. This is unfortunate, since the name is now difficult to fit into Sindarin, and cannot possibly be Quenyarin.

⁴ [For the original etymology of Glorfindel, and the etymological connections of the elements of the name, see II.341.]

Helge Fauskanger at http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/ndnn.htm speculates on why Tolkien later saw the name Glorfindel to be problematical:

We are not told precisely what was "wrong" with the name Glorfindel (that is, why it did not fit Tolkien's late vision of Sindarin very well), but part of the problem may well have been that a name of this shape ought to have become *Glorfinnel by the late Third Age. The simplest solution would seem to be that it was simply an archaic First Age form, preserved or revived by its reincarnated owner (since Tolkien did decide that Glorfindel of Rivendell was the same person as Glorfindel of Gondolin way back in the First Age).

Note that Fauskangar admits this is only speculation.

All comments so far on your posts indicate that you have set yourself a task that those who have commented, and whom you recognize as more knowledgeable in Elvish linguistics than yourself, consider impossible.

P.S. Could Voronwë in the later texts still have a son? It seems to me unlikely, but it might be possible (somehow).

This is typical of your questions. What has Tolkien written that indicates that he ever necessarily thought Voronwë didn’t have a son, or a daughter, or many children? We are told nothing of any wife of Voronwë before his return to Gondolin, but that is also the case in the Book of Lost Tales. All we know is that in the later Silmarillion Littleheart was not one of Eärendil’s campanions on his final voyage in Vingilot or that Littleheart was a companion, but is named as Falathar, or Aerandil (Airandil), or Erellont, not as Ilfiniol, or Ilverin, or Elfrith, or Elbenil as in the Lost Tales. It is not definitely written by Tolkien that any of Eärendil’s mariner companions were not Elves.

I am a loss as to why you are updating “The Cottage of Lost Play” at all when apparently in Tolkien’s latest thought Eriol has no part in this, whether of Eriol’s “former names the story nowhere tells”, whether Eriol was Ottor Wǽfre the father of Hengest and Horsa who traditionally first settled the English in England, or whether Eriol was Æscwine, an 11th century Englishman.

Tolkien’s latest thought is that Silmarillion is a translation made by Bilbo Baggins in Rivendell into Westron of a traditional summary of old tales written in Gondor.

[Arvegil145]

This is typical of your questions. What has Tolkien written that indicates that he ever necessarily thought Voronwë didn’t have a son, or a daughter, or many children? We are told nothing of any wife of Voronwë before his return to Gondolin, but that is also the case in the Book of Lost Tales. All we know is that in the later Silmarillion Littleheart was not one of Eärendil’s campanions on his final voyage in Vingilot or that Littleheart was a companion, but is named as Falathar, or Aerandil (Airandil), or Erellont, not as Ilfiniol, or Ilverin, or Elfrith, or Elbenil as in the Lost Tales. It is not definitely written by Tolkien that any of Eärendil’s mariner companions were not Elves.

Surely, Littleheart was not a companion of Eärendil, but that doesn't mean that he should have been jettisoned so lightly. Voronwë was a young Elf during the War of the Jewels, and though Gondolin was a blissful place, it is said in the "Athrabeth" that the Eldar do not wed nor bear children at times of war. And if Voronwë sailed with Tuor and Idril (although that is not a sure statement), what might have been his fate during their voyages: did they indeed make it to Aman, and there dwell now in peace, or have they been lost somewhere in the seas about Aman.

And even if Voronwë made to Aman at last, and had a son there, why should his son dwell now in Tol Eressëa? And all of Littleheart's elven names strike me a bit odd - naturally - and I cannot make my mind whether to keep him in my revised version.

I am a loss as to why you are updating “The Cottage of Lost Play” at all when apparently in Tolkien’s latest thought Eriol has no part in this, whether of Eriol’s “former names the story nowhere tells”, whether Eriol was Ottor Wǽfre the father of Hengest and Horsa who traditionally first settled the English in England, or whether Eriol was Æscwine, an 11th century Englishman.

I am NOT talking about Ottor from Angeln - I am talking about Aelfwine from England and his stay at Eressëa - with needed emendations of course.

P.S. Mar Vanwa Tyaliéva - The Cottage of Lost Play - was in Tolkien's later writings referred to the House of Elrond - and its meaning was "House of Past Mirth".

And, of course, I would NOT keep the "children" in the Cottage of Lost Play - nor would I retain its name - in the end, of what purpose is the part "of Lost Play" in its name without the children of Men travelling through the Olorë Málle to taste the bliss of Aman before they die.

Limpë would of course have to go - it contradicts EVERYTHING written about the fates of Elves and Men in the later course of Tolkien's lifetime.


My idea is this - Aelfwine journeys to Eressëa; there he is greeted by the Elves and there is a description of the island - and then, travelling through the country, he comes to a house (the Cottage) - in this sense, simply an Eressëan version of the Last Homely House - and there, he is shown the various old texts, and is taught many things by Pengolodh (in which he, in the later versions, seems the primary source of Aelfwine's oral teachings).

I admit, such a project needs a lot of tinkering with the texts, but I am COMPLETELY hellbent on keeping Aelfwine and his stor(y)ies.

Tolkien’s latest thought is that Silmarillion is a translation made by Bilbo Baggins in Rivendell into Westron of a traditional summary of old tales written in Gondor.

The sheer abundancy of the mentions of Aelfwine and his teaching in the late writings, brings your claim to naught (at least in my opinion).

And wouldn't it be more likely that a script written in Old English would be preserved (if somewhat in a fragmentary form) all the way up to Tolkien's time than a book written 7000 years ago (also in a language and script completely unknown in later times - it would take a Champollion to decipher it - referring, of course, to Bilbo's books and the writing system in which they were written - Tengwar).