Question for the Sindarin experts: is Meril still valid?

[Galin]

I think Tar-Elenion meant: in an early alteration to a text from HME V, not in the text from HME V itself, although granted even if so I can see the reason for confusion. Anyway you did say HME V but gave the name of HME IV, throwing Jallanite off I'm guessing.

I think the name Meril is a bit dubious for the mother of Gil-galad, considering that in another note (p. 242, War of the Jewels) Tolkien refers to Felagund's wife [this note was struck out, although not necessarily due to the lack of a name here] and in yet another, he leaves a blank space for Inglor's wife's name.

The alteration with the name Meril is said to be made 'much earlier' than certain other alterations CJRT gives regarding this chapter -- in any case it doesn't appear in the early typescript, and is earlier than the revisions made to the LQ2 typescript. We don't know if the blank space version is the latest of the three references noted here, as the dating seems a bit questionable in general.

Anyway we can add the note from 1965 (reproduced in The Shibboleth of Feanor at least), where Gil-galad's mother is not named but is noted as a Sindarin lady from the North.

Although none of that necessarily means Meril as a name in general was abandoned. It seemed to be on the Qenya side of things in BOLT, but apparently was Noldorin or Sindarin enough for the King's Letter, and Sindarin for this alteration to QS.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Galin

Anyway you did say HME V but gave the name of HME IV, throwing Jallanite off I'm guessing.

It was obvious from Christopher Tolkien’s note on The War of the Jewels, page 242, that all supposed earlier mentions of Meril in HoME are bogus as Christopher Tolkien states that this Meril, Felagund’s wife, is first mentioned here. I accordingly ignored all the supposed earlier references as erroneous.

The mention of Meril was believed by Christopher Tolkien to have been made after The Lord of the Rings which was good enough for me. That the name is Sindarin would be normal, as most names in the published Silmarillion are Sindarin. Phonetically the name could be either a Quenya or Sindarin form.

You are quite right that J. R. R. Tolkien seems to have later blanked the name, unless Meril is mentioned in some source that Christopher Tolkien has not reproduced.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

While Meril certainly could be either Q or S, don't forget that nearly all Silmarillion names are given in Noldorin -> Sindarin form. Prior to the Great Linguistric Shift* this was perfectly normal; afterwards T had to ret-con an explanation.

In the (pre-Shift) Epilogue it's quite clearly Noldorin as is the rest of the letter; in the Shibboleth T is explicitly discussing Quenya-speaking Noldor in Aman and uses both their Quenya and (retrospective) Sindarin names, but never tells us which Meril is supposed to be.

------------------

*The point in the early 50's, first manifested in the 'linguistic excursus' to the Grey Annals, where Tolkien abandoned the conception dating back to or before the Lost Tales where the Second Language or "Noldorin" had evolved from Quenya in Valinor and then among the Exiles in Middle-earth, and made it "Sindarin" instead.

[Galin]

Heheh... that's why I cheated when I wrote my: '... but apparently was Noldorin or Sindarin enough for the King's Letter' because I couldn't remember when the letter was written with respect to the shift.

[Arvegil145]

meril (rose) is valid in Sindarin, but what would be the Quenya equivalent?

Another thing: what would be the proper name of Meril-i-Turinqui from the Lost Tales in light of the development of Tolkien's linguistic material

- meril is glossed as "flowers" in the Lost Tales
- turinq(u)i is glossed as "queen" in the Lost Tales

But what about the hyphens before and after "i" in the name of Meril-i-Turinqi

In the later mythology meril means rose, and tári means queen.

My question is: how would that name be updated to Quenya?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I'm afraid that what you're asking, here and in the parallel post, is for something that hasn't yet been written: a comparative philology of BoLT-era Gnomish and Qenya relative to post-LR Sindarin and Quenya. One would really have to have available a full set of linguistic "laws" covering the evolution of the Elvish tongues in Tolkien's mind over some six decades.

This much at least we do know: nearly all of the names and words in BoLT are Qenya except for those (relatively) few which are explicitly Gnomish, as in the Fall of Gondolin.

[Arvegil145]

Well...why not start a forum-offshoot concerned primarily with linguistic material (not now of course, 27th century would do )


I don't know how well-versed are you in the languages (certainly better than I), but if you are indeed, could you be so kind to propose some changes in a thread I started not while ago.http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=18935

Thank you in advance!

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Galin

I think Tar-Elenion meant: in an early alteration to a text from HME V, not in the text from HME V itself, although granted even if so I can see the reason for confusion. Anyway you did say HME V but gave the name of HME IV, throwing Jallanite off I'm guessing.

I think the name Meril is a bit dubious for the mother of Gil-galad, considering that in another note (p. 242, War of the Jewels) Tolkien refers to Felagund's wife [this note was struck out, although not necessarily due to the lack of a name here] and in yet another, he leaves a blank space for Inglor's wife's name.

The alteration with the name Meril is said to be made 'much earlier' than certain other alterations CJRT gives regarding this chapter -- in any case it doesn't appear in the early typescript, and is earlier than the revisions made to the LQ2 typescript. We don't know if the blank space version is the latest of the three references noted here, as the dating seems a bit questionable in general.

Anyway we can add the note from 1965 (reproduced in The Shibboleth of Feanor at least), where Gil-galad's mother is not named but is noted as a Sindarin lady from the North.

Although none of that necessarily means Meril as a name in general was abandoned. It seemed to be on the Qenya side of things in BOLT, but apparently was Noldorin or Sindarin enough for the King's Letter, and Sindarin for this alteration to QS.

Hey, Galin!

Considering your vast knowledge of anything Tolkien, if you might be interested to work on the "Translations from Elvish" - you would be most welcome there!