![]() |
![]() |
Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
|
![]() |
#1 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,330
![]() ![]() ![]() |
Except that, assuming Sauron put any credence in a lowly Mannish fortuneteller, he still didn't know what Isildur's Bane was. That was known only to the Wise, and though Saruman was a traitor we can be certain that anything related to the Ring he kept to himself and didn't share with the Eye.
Quote:
That doesn't of course eliminate the possibility of spies. What I found interesting is that notwithstanding the Gandalf affair, and Saruman's lies to the Nazgul, Sauron nonetheless ordered Grishnakh to cooperate with Ugluk, long before Amon Hen. (T gives great detail on the actions of these two in his time-schemes: both were despatched as soon as messages reached Barad-dur and Orthanc of the Bridge of Khazad-dum. Ugluk, having less distance to cover, was already lurking on the eaves of Lorien a week after Gandalf's fall. Ghrishnakh made contact with them near Sarn Gebir, and on the 2nd "Grishnákh reinforced. Ordered to cooperate with Uglúk. (Sauron does not yet suspect Saruman). " That Sauron sure was a trusting fella! But then we see that as late as Dol Baran he actually assumed Saruman would simply hand over the Ringbearer on demand. Wise fool.
__________________
The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 01-23-2009 at 12:11 PM. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 431
![]() |
Quote:
![]() Quote:
Quote:
![]() Quote:
![]() |
||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,330
![]() ![]() ![]() |
Quote:
For that matter, did Sauron even know that Isildur took the Ring? He was already 'dead.' PJ notwithstanding, it was Elendil and Gil-galad who did him in: Isildur was just looting the corpse. In short, Isildur's possession of the Ring was known to very, very few: Elrond, the sole witness, and the survivors of the Gladden. Elrond's knowledge was circulated among the Wise, but is was always highly classified information.
__________________
The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 | |||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 431
![]() |
Quote:
That the Ring caused Isildur's death by slipping off was a surmise made by the Wise - but Sauron could make the same surmise just as easily. After all, he knew his Ring better then the Wise did. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
in the letter 211 Tolkien writes: Quote:
As for Sauron's body, I guess it had decomposed as swiftly as Saruman's - weren't they both incarnate Maiar? Maybe faster, because it was indeed hot and burning. Natural combustion-and there is nothing to loot and nothing to dispose of. |
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,330
![]() ![]() ![]() |
Hmmmm. You're right, there.
All the same, Sauron waited until ca. 2940 to begin searching the Gladden Fields. Which means... I'm not sure. It took him that long to learn of Isildur's fall? Not likely- surely all Gondor's history was in the libraries of Minas Ithil when he took it, and I'm sure he had spies among the Gondorians and/or Black Numenoreans and/or rebel Umbar. Just took him that long to expand his power from Dol Guldur? But even so, there would have been no particular reason for Sauron to think 'Isildur's Bane' was the Ring- it could have been an arrow, or a scimitar, or his horse..... The forensic investigation of the scene was carried out by the Elves, not the recently-extinct Orc-band. How likely would Sauron have been, really, to be aware of Malbeth's prophecy? Who knew of it, aside from the Wise and the cheftains of the Dunedain? And even if he did, would he have believed it? I'm sure the history of the Third Age was littered with Nostrodamuses, most of whom were spouting rubbish.
__________________
The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 01-24-2009 at 02:32 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 431
![]() |
Quote:
Isildur's Bane was spoken about in a dream that first Faramir, then Boromir had seen in June 3018. It was a fairly recent dream - and troubling. Sauron learned of these "oracular dream-words", as did Saruman (see UT, Hunt for the Ring). Denethor was troubled enough to send the Captain-General of Gondor to search the answers in the middle of nowhere, and this right after the assault on Osgiliath. At the moment, Sauron was frantically searching for the Ring - the nazgul were out looking for the Shire and Baggins. It was quite simple to dechipher "Isildur's bane", sign of Doom that is at hand. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 | ||||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And as for the hypothesis of him seeing it with the Palantír, possible, but still, I am not sure how much accurately he could see with it - if there was not any "interference" because of the distance, or perhaps because of Saruman's art or something else? Quote:
Quote:
![]() As for the Nazgul, it was some sort of "taboo" - Nazgul simply are NOT crossing the river, that's an order. You have to consider that we are looking at it from our a bit postmodern point of view, but it is something similar as when let's say in some ancient culture, people were banned to wear yellow colour. Sometimes, it did not even have any logical explanation why they should not do so, but it simply was the way it was done. You simply don't do that. Point. Quote:
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|
![]() |