Why didn't Saruman go to the Shire to take the Ring? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Boromir88 · 12-31-2008, 11:06 AM

Alfirin's analysis is a thing of beauty, and I will rep you for that post, when I can.

I guess to answer why Saruman hadn't acted before the WK arrived - now keep in mind this is my own rambling speculations - I have nothing as far as "proof."

I think we should keep in mind that dangerous game Saruman was playing. He was not only deceiving Gandalf, and the rest of the Wise, into trusting him, but he was also trying to deceive Sauron. Saruman wanted to be the Ring Lord himself, he had to not only appeal to Sauron, but keep the trust of the "Wise." And when Elrond, hears of Saruman's betrayal, he is completely shocked (as was Gandalf).

As Gandalf says in The Council of Elrond, even the greatest spiders leave a "weak thread," and Sarumans lies begin to unravel. When he's caught, he's got himself stuck in a vice; Gandalf comes after him to expel him from the Order and the Council, Sauron is after the presumed Hobbit that he captured.

So, for Saruman, he was playing such a dangerous game, he had to keep up the act as long as possible. As Grishnakh says Sauron knows Saruman is "treacherous" and "the Eye is on him." (The Uruk-hai). My guess is Sauron had his eye on Saruman from the very beginning. Saruman might have thought he was keeping his true intent hidden, and Sauron might not have figured it out until later, but he definitely had Saruman under surveillance from the get go.

Remember, that it was Saruman who is credited for driving Sauron out of Dol Guldur, and it is Saruman who did it to prevent Sauron from searching The Gladden Fields. This wasn't a loyal, trusting friendship, and I very highly doubt Sauron and Saruman went to counseling together to work our their past.

Long story short, Saruman wanted to keep the Ring away from Sauron, just as much as he wanted it for himself. Had he gone racing off for the Ring when he first got news of where it probably was, this would have certainly tipped Sauron off sooner. On where the Ring was, and also Saruman's own treachery. Not only that, but the good guys would have learned about Saruman's betrayal a lot sooner than they did, when Gandalf spilled the beans (what a tattle tale!

). In a way, Saruman handcuffed himself, by the way he decided to play the game.

Gordis · 01-01-2009, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

In a way, Saruman handcuffed himself, by the way he decided to play the game.

His plan was maybe not that bad, but he was not subtle enough to adapt to the changing situation, make quick decisions and carry them out.

For instance, HerenIstarion agrees with me that Saruman may have hoped that Gandalf will come to Orthanc bringing the Ring. Yes, but then, when Gandalf came without the Ring, - why didn't Saruman change his plans accordingly?
Read again the beginning of their memorable conversation:

Quote:

"So you have come, Gandalf," he said to me gravely; but in his eyes there seemed to be a white light, as if a cold laughter was in his heart.
`"Yes, I have come," I said. "I have come for your aid, Saruman the White." And that title seemed to anger him.
"Have you indeed, Gandalf the Grey! " he scoffed. "For aid? It has seldom been heard of that Gandalf the Grey sought for aid, one so cunning and so wise, wandering about the lands, and concerning himself in every business, whether it belongs to him or not."
I looked at him and wondered. "But if I am not deceived," said I, "things are now moving which will require the union of all our strength."

Does Saruman seem a clever guy here? Gandalf calls him "the White" - and look at it, the mighty Saruman gets angry and spills out everything, revealing his own treachery before the White Council. Had he more patience and cunning, Saruman, pretending to support Gandalf, could have learned the location of the Ring and devised some plan to seize it.

Same problem he had in the talk with the Morgul Lord. It seems the Nazgul was not too polite in his "challenge and demands": we know he didn't bow and didn't call Saruman "lord". And look at it - mighty Saruman gets miffed and again tells much more than he should have, trying to impress the nazgul.

Same problem at the parley in LOTR. Saruman tries to charm Theoden and for a time it seems that he might succeed. Gimli intervenes, then Eomer. Saruman rebukes both angrily, dissipating the effect of his main spell.

Yes, psychology is quite important. Even when Saruman tries to do what he does best: tries to persuade somebody, he fails, because he has grown too sure of himself, too proud and easily offended. And when offended, he looses his temper and makes mistakes.

Morthoron · 01-01-2009, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordis

Does Saruman seem a clever guy here?

Humorously, this is just another example of Tolkien's 'wise' not being very wise, or perhaps merely lacking common sense. Inexplicably throughout Tolkien's mythos, those he accounts 'wise' make bad decisions, misjudge their foes, and basically display serious woodenheadedness. I'd cite several hundred examples, but I believe everyone gets the gist of what I'm saying.

Oftentimes, the simple Hobbits display more common sense than the educated elite. I suppose that is just a reflection of how things usually are in a real-world sense.

littlemanpoet · 01-09-2009, 11:01 AM

As with Saruman and so many others, the wise succumb to pride while the humble do what must be done. It's Saruman's pride that is his undoing. 'Pride goes before a fall'.

Gordis · 01-09-2009, 11:13 AM

Well - it is certainly true generally, but take Sauron in the Second Age. I guess the guy was always full of pride, but still he was clever enough to play his role of Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, to perfection. When Galadriel scorned him to his face, he only smiled humbly... the charmer.

I highly doubt Saruman could have succeeded in a similar situation. He was not of the right character for the role.

littlemanpoet · 01-10-2009, 10:59 AM

I can think of two reasons for the differences between Sauron and Saruman.

1) Sauron was a greater Ainu and was therefore more powerful in his skills, spells, and personal presence.

2) Sauron fell early and had long ages of being wholly evil. Saruman had been good until perhaps the last 500 years of the Third Age; also, Tolkien depicts him at his "unstaffing" and at his death, as being at war with himself. When there's a civil war in any nation, that nation is far weaker than when unified. The same goes for people.

However, one can distinguish between the listeners of the two. Who was taken in by Sauron, and who not? Same question for Saruman?

One might suspect that Frodo would have been taken in by Saruman at the beginning, but he grew so much that he could see through Saruman in the end. The Eorlingas of Rohan were snowed by him. Theoden had to fight with a will to get his mind cleared enough to speak past the subtle lies, even in the face of recent events! Gimli is not fooled, which I find interesting and very satisfying.

The Numenoreans were tending towards evil anyway, so it is no great surprise that they believed Sauron's lies. It is interesting however that the Elves of Eregion either could not, or refused to, see through his deceptions until it was too late; what does that say of them, as opposed to what it tells us of Sauron?

Inziladun · 01-10-2009, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

The Numenoreans were tending towards evil anyway, so it is no great surprise that they believed Sauron's lies. It is interesting however that the Elves of Eregion either could not, or refused to, see through his deceptions until it was too late; what does that say of them, as opposed to what it tells us of Sauron?

As Noldor, the Elves of Eregion were always more interested in the making of things, artifacts of power and so forth, than others of their kind. Sauron had a great deal of knowledge regarding such matters, and that alone was probably too attractive to many of them for them to turn Sauron away.
He also appealed to their desire for healing and the slowing of decay or change.
Being blinded by these 'character flaws', they didn't see Sauron's true nature and designs until he put on the One.
What this tells us of Sauron we already knew: he was an extremely cunning tactician well able to take advantage of an enemy's weaknesses.

12-31-2008, 11:06 AM	#1
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	Alfirin's analysis is a thing of beauty, and I will rep you for that post, when I can. I guess to answer why Saruman hadn't acted before the WK arrived - now keep in mind this is my own rambling speculations - I have nothing as far as "proof." I think we should keep in mind that dangerous game Saruman was playing. He was not only deceiving Gandalf, and the rest of the Wise, into trusting him, but he was also trying to deceive Sauron. Saruman wanted to be the Ring Lord himself, he had to not only appeal to Sauron, but keep the trust of the "Wise." And when Elrond, hears of Saruman's betrayal, he is completely shocked (as was Gandalf). As Gandalf says in The Council of Elrond, even the greatest spiders leave a "weak thread," and Sarumans lies begin to unravel. When he's caught, he's got himself stuck in a vice; Gandalf comes after him to expel him from the Order and the Council, Sauron is after the presumed Hobbit that he captured. So, for Saruman, he was playing such a dangerous game, he had to keep up the act as long as possible. As Grishnakh says Sauron knows Saruman is "treacherous" and "the Eye is on him." (The Uruk-hai). My guess is Sauron had his eye on Saruman from the very beginning. Saruman might have thought he was keeping his true intent hidden, and Sauron might not have figured it out until later, but he definitely had Saruman under surveillance from the get go. Remember, that it was Saruman who is credited for driving Sauron out of Dol Guldur, and it is Saruman who did it to prevent Sauron from searching The Gladden Fields. This wasn't a loyal, trusting friendship, and I very highly doubt Sauron and Saruman went to counseling together to work our their past. Long story short, Saruman wanted to keep the Ring away from Sauron, just as much as he wanted it for himself. Had he gone racing off for the Ring when he first got news of where it probably was, this would have certainly tipped Sauron off sooner. On where the Ring was, and also Saruman's own treachery. Not only that, but the good guys would have learned about Saruman's betrayal a lot sooner than they did, when Gandalf spilled the beans (what a tattle tale! ). In a way, Saruman handcuffed himself, by the way he decided to play the game. __________________ Fenris Penguin

01-09-2009, 11:01 AM	#4
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	As with Saruman and so many others, the wise succumb to pride while the humble do what must be done. It's Saruman's pride that is his undoing. 'Pride goes before a fall'.

01-09-2009, 11:13 AM	#5
Gordis Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 431	Well - it is certainly true generally, but take Sauron in the Second Age. I guess the guy was always full of pride, but still he was clever enough to play his role of Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, to perfection. When Galadriel scorned him to his face, he only smiled humbly... the charmer. I highly doubt Saruman could have succeeded in a similar situation. He was not of the right character for the role.

01-10-2009, 10:59 AM	#6
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	I can think of two reasons for the differences between Sauron and Saruman. 1) Sauron was a greater Ainu and was therefore more powerful in his skills, spells, and personal presence. 2) Sauron fell early and had long ages of being wholly evil. Saruman had been good until perhaps the last 500 years of the Third Age; also, Tolkien depicts him at his "unstaffing" and at his death, as being at war with himself. When there's a civil war in any nation, that nation is far weaker than when unified. The same goes for people. However, one can distinguish between the listeners of the two. Who was taken in by Sauron, and who not? Same question for Saruman? One might suspect that Frodo would have been taken in by Saruman at the beginning, but he grew so much that he could see through Saruman in the end. The Eorlingas of Rohan were snowed by him. Theoden had to fight with a will to get his mind cleared enough to speak past the subtle lies, even in the face of recent events! Gimli is not fooled, which I find interesting and very satisfying. The Numenoreans were tending towards evil anyway, so it is no great surprise that they believed Sauron's lies. It is interesting however that the Elves of Eregion either could not, or refused to, see through his deceptions until it was too late; what does that say of them, as opposed to what it tells us of Sauron?