the elessar

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galin

But that still misses the main question in my opinion: why does Galadriel, before even knowing that the Elessar is with Olorin, desire preservation power if she can employ Nenya, as she certainly does in the Third Age?

That's the question that goes away if she cannot employ Nenya at all because it's too early, with Olorin but not 'Gandalf'.

Was it the case that her conversation with Olorin preceded the peak in assay of the Gwaith-i-Mirdain's lore? I took UFT (I don't have it here atm, but I can check again), on this point (about the Elessar/with Olorin version), to be a conversation with Olorin sometime before she had Nenya.

However -- and here's the timing thing again -- as we know, Cirdan gave Gandalf a Ring. So, I need to check UFT again, but it seemed to me that in that first version of the Elessar, Tolkien had not had Nenya on Galadriel's finger (which again goes to what I read in Galin's earliest post, upstream. He noted that this meant a 'visit from Olorin to his mate, Alatariel (as he would have known her, not as Galadriel), *before* he was Istari-ified.....

awkward, but necessary to resolve the problem....

[Galin]

Well that's the point in question: if it's Gandalf the Istar it's about 1,000 years into the Third Age, or later... but Nerwende Artanis -- with [in theory] Nenya on her finger -- desires unfading grass, for example? She says this to Olorin before he reveals he has the Elessar.

I don't know why the Olorin idea is necssarily awkward though, as Tolkien himself even speaks to this Maia visiting Middle-earthers very early on, and provides the means. Unless you think the idea awkward even if it's from the uthor, I guess.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galin

Well that's the point in question: if it's Gandalf the Istar it's about 1,000 years into the Third Age, or later... but Nerwende Artanis -- with [in theory] Nenya on her finger -- desires unfading grass, for example? She says this to Olorin before he reveals he has the Elessar.

those darned elves and their lawns! they just can't stand seeing their gardens wilt in summer...

I don't know why the Olorin idea is necssarily awkward though, as Tolkien himself even speaks to this Maia visiting Middle-earthers very early on, and provides the means. Unless you think the idea awkward even if it's from the uthor, I guess.

I saw what you wrote about the emphasis on author and 'Olorin' and that meaning he was not yet istari-ified. It's awkward because of how hard lined the Tale of the Years is about the arrival of the Istari, giving the impression of 'okay, now go', and 'not before'. Add to that all the stuff about the preparatory discussions the Maia chosen had with the Valar pre-departure. Gandalf specifically says he feared Sauron and so, I think it was Manwe said that made Gandalf an even better choice. (this was not in UT, but in other books I have at hand, I can quote if you like).

The 'vibe', then *smiles* (vibe....how clearly argued Ivriniel hahaha) is about why on earth, a Maia would keep ties with ole Galadriel, some several (thousand) years, long after she took off to Middle Earth.

I know the Maia like Olorin walked, sometimes clad as Elves and sometimes as invisible spirits in the West. But? What--Olorin pops over the Middle Earth, becomes corporeal as a, what, elf? It just all feels wrong....

[Galin]

But within this conception Olorin isn't arriving as an Istar, complete with and Istar's function and duties, here.

'That Olórin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this.'

So why not visit Nerwen and so on, as Olorin, and for his own [and Yavanna's] reasons. The collective Istari mission to combat Sauron is in the future from this perspective.

Also, I'm not sure Olorin the Maia had certainly known Galadriel in Aman, as a friend.

It's possible, and certainly possible that he knew of her obviously, but no former friendship is stated that I'm aware of, and the suggestion that Olorin walked among Elves unseen, or as one of them [blending into the background? or becoming friendly with the Elves, or some Elves?], doesn't exactly necessarily speak to making friends with every, even notable Elf.

Not that you said otherwise.

I can see the thinking here, I mean it's Galadriel, but it's one of those things which is unsaid as far as I know.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galin

But within this conception Olorin isn't arriving as an Istar, complete with and Istar's function and duties, here.

hang on am home now, lemme eat my dinner and hava nutha read of the text....back soon

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Let's not forget that the incarnate bodies of the Istari were, as much as anything, disguises. Only Cirdan knew what they were or whence they came, at least at first. Even when Elrond and Galadriel picked up on it, as I'm sure eventually they did, they still wouldn't have been, like, "Hey, Olorin! Thought it was you. Great costume, dude." Maiar in their native form could assume any shape they liked, and we have seen that Olorin preferred to be incognito when dealing with the Elves.

[Galin]

While you're reading I'll add: the timing in the essay is a bit unclear imy opinion, unless you or somone can clarify it better. Galadriel is in Greenwood, and this possibly goes hand in hand with the first edition passage that Celeborn, in the Second Age, established a realm in the South of Greenwood [later revised].

The 'conception' is thus the interpretation that we have Olorin here, not Gandalf as an Istar, and this would be well before the collective choosing of the Istari and so on. And Olorin gives the Elessar stone with mention of Yavanna. I don't recall any indication here [necessarily] of an Istari-related mission...

... but what we do have is what I and others have wondered about already: a Galadriel who desires flowers and grass that do not die, and, considering that she has one of the Three Great Rings of preservation power when the Istari appear, this does not easily fall in line with a time after the Istari arrived in Middle-earth.

In other words the conception is not explicitly noted by Tolkien, but for me it does not seem awkward, especially given my quote from JRRT about Olorin visiting folk in Middle-earth [outside of and before the Istari mission]...

... and no more awkward than Melian coming to Middle-earth in a physical form, for example. And if one objects to Tolkien's conception from WPP about the Valar and Maiar visting Middle-earth, we could even 'invent' a ship for Olorin in this period.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

OKay, it sort of works-- and while we're speculatin' we could recall that one version of the Glorfindel story has him arriving in the 2d age, and a note raises the possibility of a Numenorean ship.... there was after all sea-traffic from Eressea to Numenor. So could not Olorin-in-disguise have hitched a ride? (The Elessar essay implies, I think, that until Gandalf/Olorin invoked Yavanna, Galadriel didn't know where he came from)