Numenoreans attacking the Valar

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

In Letter 156, referring to this very situation, Tolkien said:

The Valar had no real answer to this monstrous rebellion -- for the Children of God were not under their ultimate jurisdiction: they were not allowed to destroy them, or coerce them with any 'divine' display of the powers they held over the physical world. They appealed to God, and a catastrophic 'change of plan' occurred.

The only ones of the Ainur who do destroy the Children and coerce them with "divine" displays of power are those who have fallen into evil ways: Melkor, Sauron, Saruman, the Balrogs, etc. I do not know of any instance in which one of the "non-fallen" Ainur did so (maybe it could be argued that Osse did so with his stormy nature, but I don't know that he did so with the express purpose of destroying any of the Children). Melkor could be hurt by the weapons of the Children because he had invested so much of his power into the dominance of the physical world, he became irrevocably tied to his incarnate body (this is discussed somewhere in Morgoth's Ring, I believe).

As to the matter of the Numenorean armada being "the greatest army the world had ever seen," I feel this has to be viewed with something of a grain of salt -- rather like the "Last Alliance of Elves and Men." The latter occurred at the end of the Second Age -- and yet there was another alliance of Elves and Men during the Third Age, to fight the Witch King of Angmar. It could be said, perhaps, that the Alliance in the Second Age was the last time actual kingdoms of Elves and Men would ally themselves against a common foe, but I find a distinct ambiguity in the use of the term "last." Just as I find some feeling of ambiguity in the term "greatest." How does one define greatness -- or, perhaps more specifically, how did the chronicler of the event define it? If it was written by a Man (one of the faithful who survived, perhaps), then they could not have been alive to see any of the armies that fought outside their limited lifespan, and thus draw comparisons. If it was written by an Elf, then it's unlikely he saw Ar-Pharazon's armada with his own eyes, since Elves had been banned from Numenor some years before. To top it off, how did anyone in Middle-earth know what had happened in Valinor? After the world was sundered, there was no travel between Aman and ME, and precious little communication (unless it came through Cirdan's contact with Ulmo and Osse, or later, the Istari). Who told the writer of the account precisely what the Valar had done?

Well, I'm not really arguing with it. I'm just pointing out that there are a number of seemingly contradictory or inexplicable things in these tales. Sometimes you just have to take what is said with that grain of salt, and let it go. There's no way to resolve all the myriad issues an enquiring mind can conjure up.

Hey, post 300. Cool!

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

As to the matter of the Numenorean armada being "the greatest army the world had ever seen," I feel this has to be viewed with something of a grain of salt -- rather like the "Last Alliance of Elves and Men." The latter occurred at the end of the Second Age -- and yet there was another alliance of Elves and Men during the Third Age, to fight the Witch King of Angmar. It could be said, perhaps, that the Alliance in the Second Age was the last time actual kingdoms of Elves and Men would ally themselves against a common foe, but I find a distinct ambiguity in the use of the term "last." Just as I find some feeling of ambiguity in the term "greatest." How does one define greatness -- or, perhaps more specifically, how did the chronicler of the event define it? If it was written by a Man (one of the faithful who survived, perhaps), then they could not have been alive to see any of the armies that fought outside their limited lifespan, and thus draw comparisons. If it was written by an Elf, then it's unlikely he saw Ar-Pharazon's armada with his own eyes, since Elves had been banned from Numenor some years before. To top it off, how did anyone in Middle-earth know what had happened in Valinor? After the world was sundered, there was no travel between Aman and ME, and precious little communication (unless it came through Cirdan's contact with Ulmo and Osse, or later, the Istari). Who told the writer of the account precisely what the Valar had done?

Perhaps you're not arguing it, but you have raised the questions. Not only that, but you've suggested the answers also. Cirdan, Elrond, Galadriel, and the Eagles of Manwë are enough to ensure between them that the truth would be known by the wise. If you read the Akallebeth account in The Sil, it is quite apparent that this armada was of an incredible scale. "Like an archipelago of a thousand small islands". So maybe it would have taken a couple of tidal waves and not just one.

[Mnemosyne]

So maybe it would have taken a couple of tidal waves and not just one.

Yeah, but what if it were a really, really, really big tidal wave?

[Macalaure]

How big a tidal wave is Ulmo able to make? Keeping in mind that the War of Wrath lasted 40 years or so, I have a strong feeling even the Valar couldn't have ended the attack within a day, and much of the good Valinorean china would have been broken in the meantime.

Originally Posted by Ibri

I do not know of any instance in which one of the "non-fallen" Ainur did so

See my example above. Men fought alongside Morgoth in the War of Wrath. Even if no Ainu personally killed any of those Easterlings etc., they commanded the forces. Maybe this is just an inconsistency on the Prof's part, though.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

See my example above. Men fought alongside Morgoth in the War of Wrath. Even if no Ainu personally killed any of those Easterlings etc., they commanded the forces. Maybe this is just an inconsistency on the Prof's part, though.

Quite possibly. Although the Ainur didn't march alone. As I recall, the Vanyar and the Noldor still in Aman went with them, and fought; the Teleri provided the ships to take them, and sailed them, but did not participate in the fighting. (Which also explains the matter of how Elrond "saw the splendor of their banners"; the ships carrying the Elves had to land somewhere... but that's another thread, isn't it? ) It would seem strange if the Amanian Elves did all the fighting with the Eruhini on Melkor's side, but it would really be the only way to remain consistent with Tolkien's assertion that the Ainur did not have the authority to destroy them.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Osse's sinking the seven ships off Nevrast with all the
elves save Voronwe dying seems to come very
close to a valar directly dispatching some of the
Children of Iluvatar when simply by not causing
an uber storm they would have been saved.

[the phantom]

Ulmo make a giant tidal wave?

Yeah, kill all of the Elves in Alqualonde and Tol Eressea and any settlements on the coast of Middle-Earth. I'm sure the Valar would support that plan.

Plus, I'm not sure how easy it was to do something like that, let alone do lots of them one right after the other. And make no mistake, it would've taken some really nasty waves to take care of the greatest mariners the world has ever seen. Lots of waves. Very big ones. And miles and miles of them.

What I'm saying is, I don't think it would've been easy at all to overcome the Numenoreans. I don't think Ar Phar and his lads would've killed any of the Valar or anything like that (because the Valar never shackled themselves to their bodies like Morgoth in his effort to gain greater power), but I do think they could've broken pretty much everything breakable and killed pretty much everything killable before they were stopped. All in all, I'm saying that we should not take lightly or dismiss the greatest force of war ever in Middle Earth.

I like that letters quote, Ibrin. The business of Ainu imposing their will upon the Children of Eru pops up again and again. Saruman versus Gandalf, right?

And wow, your name is long.