Numenoreans attacking the Valar

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath

But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others new-come out of the east, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.

There were a lot of Men marching with Morgoth in the War of Wrath, and the Valar didn't mind killing them at all, so it cannot have been a matter of lack of authority.

I think the phantom is right. Ar-Pharazôn's army was the largest that ever existed. (Keep in mind, just before it did not defeat Sauron's army, which was at the peak of its strength at that time, but made it flee without battle! It instilled more fear in them than Sauron did.) It must have been strong enough to, if not defeat the Valar, to at least inflict damage on Valinor that was beyond what the Valar were willing to suffer, maybe beyond the Valar's ability to heal.

Tolkien is unclear why the Valar called upon Eru, he only states the fact. But that also means it is never stated that the Valar were powerful enough to defeat Pharazôn and his army and therefore must have had a different reason to do so. Case not closed.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

There were a lot of Men marching with Morgoth in the War of Wrath, and the Valar didn't mind killing them at all, so it cannot have been a matter of lack of authority.

They were part of the army of Morgoth. I think that if it's Vala against Vala, then they're allowed to fight, but it's a little bit unfair for the super-powerful beings that the Valar are to to obliterate mere Men. Also, remember that in the War of Wrath there were probably dragons, and depending on how you look at it, possibly Balrogs to fight, not to mention other Maiar. And let's not forget that this was Morgoth, and he may have given his men power.

Also, they were trying to capture Morgoth, so if anyone stood in their way then it's their problem, so to speak. They could abandon if they want to. The Valar at least probably gave those who wanted to a chance to retreat. Anyway, in the War of Wrath, they just killed the warriors that were going to fight anyway, whereas with Numenor, everyone was killed.

Thirdly, I think that Manwe wasn't sure to what extent he should go: whether to just stop the boats coming, whether to destroy the boats, or whether he should go father. So he just did the sensible thing and let Eru sort it out, instead of doing something that might have caused problems later. Manwe probably by now knew that he didn't really understand evil, so he passed over the decision to someone who could, the same way it should have been when Gandalf left Saruman to his own knowledge of the Ring(s).

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Lindale

Begging your pardon, but doesn't the very spirit-ness of the Valar make them powerful?

No. Spirits can't impact the physical world as much as an incarnate. That's why Morgoth and Sauron became incarnate to the point that they did- to gain greater power over things.

And the example you cite, Melian- notice that she is an Ainu that became fully incarnate. She ceased to be a floaty-spirit-thing. You think she could've done the whole girdle/fence had she not become incarnate?

And the Valar's control over nature- it doesn't do them that much good against the Numenoreans, does it? I mean, what are they going to do, make the Pelori fall down on them? For one, I don't think it was such a simple thing to do (they can't just snap their fingers and make it happen- it's not magic). In addition, they'd kill lots of their own by doing something so insane. They might destroy the whole land. And I'd bet they couldn't do all that much on the ocean either. The armada was larger than they could possibly sink, and the Numenoreans were amazing mariners.

Now, I agree with LMP that it is possible that the Valar might have indeed lacked the authority to fight the Numenoreans (though you'd think they had the right to defend their land). But I don't agree that it is a given that they had the power. According to the text, it was the greatest force of war ever. Ever.

And don't give me the "but they were Elves" argument. Elves were not necessarily greater warriors than men. Turin for instance, was said to be as agile as any Elf, but stronger, so it's not a given that Elves are faster than men. What probably is a given is that the Numenoreans were bigger and stronger than nearly all the Elves in Valinor.

Mac's point is very good. Isn't it telling that Sauron's army was so scared they didn't even try to fight them? And that Numenorean army wasn't even as great as the one sent to Valinor.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Now, I agree with LMP that it is possible that the Valar might have indeed lacked the authority to fight the Numenoreans (though you'd think they had the right to defend their land). But I don't agree that it is a given that they had the power. According to the text, it was the greatest force of war ever. Ever.

I believe it was simply a matter of the Valar surrendering authority to Eru because they were not allowed to kill Children of Illuvatar, plain and simple. If you remember, Eonwe forbade anyone to harm Maglor and Maedhros, even though they committed murder in the camp of the Valar after the War of Wrath.

It was not in the Valar's power to destroy the Numenoreans. And if you think about it, what does it matter if they had the greatest army ever assembled? If it were, in fact, within the Valar's scope of authority to destroy the Numenoreans, then all that had to be done was for Ulmo to unleash Osse on the Numenorean ships before they landed. A cataclysmic tsunami was all that was necessary to drown the whole shebang.

In any case, the Numenorean army was not 'technically' killed by Eru either. They were buried under hills, and there to await the final battle. It would seem to be much like the King of the Dead and the Oathbreakers never truly 'passing away' until they fulfilled their oath. Sort of a suspended animation, if you like.

[littlemanpoet]

I think Morthoron makes some good points. Consider, Ulmo himself could probably wipe out the entire armada with a tidal wave.

But regarding the authority of the Valar. The Numenoreans are a special case of Human in Middle Earth. Having just reread LotR (for the 6th time ), I was struck by how many times and ways Tolkien makes this point, be it in reference to Aragorn, to the Dunedain of the north, or to Imrahil and is kin from Dol Amroth. All of this to say that the Numenoreans were not typical of all men. The Valar themselves were the givers of Numenor to the Dunedain (correct me if I'm wrong). This placed them in a somewhat trickier (dicier?) position in regard to their authority vis a vi Iluvatar's. Therefore, the Valar did have some right relative to the land on which the Numenoreans dwelt. Nevertheless, these still were Children of Iluvatar. So the Valar had, one could say, a tight little ethical bind to figure they're way through. Instead of make a wrong choice, they made the best choice and deferred the matter to Iluvatar.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

In any case, the Numenorean army was not 'technically' killed by Eru either. They were buried under hills, and there to await the final battle. It would seem to be much like the King of the Dead and the Oathbreakers never truly 'passing away' until they fulfilled their oath. Sort of a suspended animation, if you like.

He probably didn't want to see them "beyond the edges of Arda" (or whatever the quote is to say where Men go after they die) after what they'd done.

Were they like the Army of the dead, or were they just frozen in time? Because I'm sure that being stuck in a dark underwater cavern for a few thousand years is a pretty bad punishment.

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And don't give me the "but they were Elves" argument. Elves were not necessarily greater warriors than men. Turin for instance, was said to be as agile as any Elf, but stronger, so it's not a given that Elves are faster than men. What probably is a given is that the Numenoreans were bigger and stronger than nearly all the Elves in Valinor.

I knew you'd get that argument.

My point is that, yes these Numenoreans are probably the toughest Men ever, maybe comparable to Turin too, but the Elves of Valinor have an edge, or at least those who were born under the Two Trees. There's this bit with those who survived Helcaraxe great travail must endure before they give up, and those nourished by the Two Trees (or maybe just being in Valinor) had "strength of the ancient world, such as those possessed by those nourished in Valinor."

Now I'm not for arguing about melees or what, but your point with Melian being incarnate before she did her Girdle, I'm sure the Valar can do so too. Did they not raise the Mountains of Valinor when the Noldor went away? Etc.

Anyway, I'm also for opting that this subject is too ambiguous, and that Eru was called by Manwe not because they lacked strength, but because they deemed it best to just approach him for too great a thing for their hands.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

In Letter 156, referring to this very situation, Tolkien said:

The Valar had no real answer to this monstrous rebellion -- for the Children of God were not under their ultimate jurisdiction: they were not allowed to destroy them, or coerce them with any 'divine' display of the powers they held over the physical world. They appealed to God, and a catastrophic 'change of plan' occurred.

The only ones of the Ainur who do destroy the Children and coerce them with "divine" displays of power are those who have fallen into evil ways: Melkor, Sauron, Saruman, the Balrogs, etc. I do not know of any instance in which one of the "non-fallen" Ainur did so (maybe it could be argued that Osse did so with his stormy nature, but I don't know that he did so with the express purpose of destroying any of the Children). Melkor could be hurt by the weapons of the Children because he had invested so much of his power into the dominance of the physical world, he became irrevocably tied to his incarnate body (this is discussed somewhere in Morgoth's Ring, I believe).

As to the matter of the Numenorean armada being "the greatest army the world had ever seen," I feel this has to be viewed with something of a grain of salt -- rather like the "Last Alliance of Elves and Men." The latter occurred at the end of the Second Age -- and yet there was another alliance of Elves and Men during the Third Age, to fight the Witch King of Angmar. It could be said, perhaps, that the Alliance in the Second Age was the last time actual kingdoms of Elves and Men would ally themselves against a common foe, but I find a distinct ambiguity in the use of the term "last." Just as I find some feeling of ambiguity in the term "greatest." How does one define greatness -- or, perhaps more specifically, how did the chronicler of the event define it? If it was written by a Man (one of the faithful who survived, perhaps), then they could not have been alive to see any of the armies that fought outside their limited lifespan, and thus draw comparisons. If it was written by an Elf, then it's unlikely he saw Ar-Pharazon's armada with his own eyes, since Elves had been banned from Numenor some years before. To top it off, how did anyone in Middle-earth know what had happened in Valinor? After the world was sundered, there was no travel between Aman and ME, and precious little communication (unless it came through Cirdan's contact with Ulmo and Osse, or later, the Istari). Who told the writer of the account precisely what the Valar had done?

Well, I'm not really arguing with it. I'm just pointing out that there are a number of seemingly contradictory or inexplicable things in these tales. Sometimes you just have to take what is said with that grain of salt, and let it go. There's no way to resolve all the myriad issues an enquiring mind can conjure up.

Hey, post 300. Cool!

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

As to the matter of the Numenorean armada being "the greatest army the world had ever seen," I feel this has to be viewed with something of a grain of salt -- rather like the "Last Alliance of Elves and Men." The latter occurred at the end of the Second Age -- and yet there was another alliance of Elves and Men during the Third Age, to fight the Witch King of Angmar. It could be said, perhaps, that the Alliance in the Second Age was the last time actual kingdoms of Elves and Men would ally themselves against a common foe, but I find a distinct ambiguity in the use of the term "last." Just as I find some feeling of ambiguity in the term "greatest." How does one define greatness -- or, perhaps more specifically, how did the chronicler of the event define it? If it was written by a Man (one of the faithful who survived, perhaps), then they could not have been alive to see any of the armies that fought outside their limited lifespan, and thus draw comparisons. If it was written by an Elf, then it's unlikely he saw Ar-Pharazon's armada with his own eyes, since Elves had been banned from Numenor some years before. To top it off, how did anyone in Middle-earth know what had happened in Valinor? After the world was sundered, there was no travel between Aman and ME, and precious little communication (unless it came through Cirdan's contact with Ulmo and Osse, or later, the Istari). Who told the writer of the account precisely what the Valar had done?

Perhaps you're not arguing it, but you have raised the questions. Not only that, but you've suggested the answers also. Cirdan, Elrond, Galadriel, and the Eagles of Manwë are enough to ensure between them that the truth would be known by the wise. If you read the Akallebeth account in The Sil, it is quite apparent that this armada was of an incredible scale. "Like an archipelago of a thousand small islands". So maybe it would have taken a couple of tidal waves and not just one.

[Mnemosyne]

So maybe it would have taken a couple of tidal waves and not just one.

Yeah, but what if it were a really, really, really big tidal wave?