Which Vala tripped Gollum?

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

I definitely class Gollum's death as one of those events that are both foreshadowed (by the author) and also foretold (by a character). In this case it's also a curse, as Zigûr describes. I also very much like the idea that it is a combination of Frodo and the Ring speaking. Sure, the Ring can't speak for itself, but it can possess a Bearer to some extent, especially if they are weakened. The Ring has, in some way, it's own will. Just as Frodo and Sam sometimes feel like they might just lay down and die rather than complete the Quest, perhaps the Ring too sometimes craves oblivion nearly as much as it craves reunion with its Master. In a similar way, one can imagine Gollum sensing on a subconscious level that once he has regained the Ring there is no way he can remain the Bearer unless he denies everyone else the chance to take it...

In any case, the idea of the Ring cursing Gollum and thus inadvertently ensuring its own destruction is quite deliciously ironic.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

The Ring has, in some way, it's own will. Just as Frodo and Sam sometimes feel like they might just lay down and die rather than complete the Quest, perhaps the Ring too sometimes craves oblivion nearly as much as it craves reunion with its Master.

I still doubt that the Ring intended its own destruction. Think of how much pressure it was exerting on Frodo at Mt. Doom to prevent him from throwing it into the Fire. And it succeeded. I think the "will" of the Ring was to stall Frodo until Sauron could come in person and deal with the pretender. It was Gollum who was the wild card, playing the unforeseen part Gandalf had intuited.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I still doubt that the Ring intended its own destruction. Think of how much pressure it was exerting on Frodo at Mt. Doom to prevent him from throwing it into the Fire. And it succeeded. I think the "will" of the Ring was to stall Frodo until Sauron could come in person and deal with the pretender. It was Gollum who was the wild card, playing the unforeseen part Gandalf had intuited.

I don't think that when the Witch King claimed, "This is my hour," that he was thinking of a cock crowing. That was the furthest thought in his mind. I don't think when he claimed "No mortal man may hinder me!" he saw Eowyn as a woman. Nor do I think all the implications of the curse "If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom" were well thought through when the curse was uttered. This would be true whether it was the Ring that was behind the curse, Frodo, or some combination of the two. In hindsight, the wording of all three curses were flawed.

In many of the exchanges of curses / prophecies that precede physical conflicts, it seems that the bad guy slips up the wording, leaving a critical loophole which the good guys, intentionally or not, end up exploiting.

It's common to encounter something similar in role playing. I played in a Middle Earth role playing game a while back. Both myself and the game master were aware of the notion of prophecies spoken before battle in Middle Earth. I was always fearful of invoking such word magic for fear I'd mess up the phrasing. Game masters are notorious for granting the letter of a wish, curse or prophecy while perverting the spirit. It seems Tolkien wrote in a similar spirit.

I also wasn't sure my character had enough Fea to speak a binding prophecy / curse / wish in her game world. Can any individual in Middle Earth, before a conflict, speak Words of Power? Or are only the Great speaking at the height of a major point of history granted the privilege?

I can't see Frodo speaking Words of Power in order to get away from some farmer without losing any purloined mushrooms. None of the conflicts my player character was involved with were on the scale of events encountered by the Fellowship of the Ring. It generally didn't feel right for Aerlinn to stand tall and issue orders to the various Servants of the Enemy she encountered. Thus, she didn't.

But she and I were aware that the possibility of speaking such Words was there.

[Galadriel55]

Why woudn't someone be able to speak Words of Power (by which I assume you mean curse or prophecy)? They clearly were able to do that, so why do you say they can't?

People with Elvish and/or Numenorian blood have foresight, and they can predict some things. Those would not be "official" prophecies, but prophecies nonetheless. People with innate power have uttered curses and they came true; once again, some curses were "official" (see Isildur) and some were similar to prophecies.


I agree with what Inzil said and with your first response to him, but I just don't understand your second point there.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Why wouldn't someone be able to speak Words of Power (by which I assume you mean curse or prophecy)? They clearly were able to do that, so why do you say they can't?

People with Elvish and/or Numenorian blood have foresight, and they can predict some things. Those would not be "official" prophecies, but prophecies nonetheless. People with innate power have uttered curses and they came true; once again, some curses were "official" (see Isildur) and some were similar to prophecies.


I agree with what Inzil said and with your first response to him, but I just don't understand your second point there.

It's just based on examples in the book. In my large post above, note the prophecies made just before conflict involved major characters just before critical conflicts. The speakers were Gandalf, the Witch King, Frodo, and Eowyn. The conflicts were critical to the history of Middle Earth.

You mention elven / Numenorian foresight. The primary examples in LoTR are Aragorn's warning to Gandalf about entering Moria, Aragorn warning the forces of Saruman at Helm's Deep, and Aragorn telling Eomer they would draw swords together again, though all the power of Mordor would separate them.

What I don't recall seeing is relatively minor characters at not particularly important times attempting to foretell victory. In a role playing environment, the power of prophecy would be ever so abusable if anyone at any time as often as he liked could yell "I'm going to kill you" every time he draws his sword. Magic ought not to be that quick and easy. Thus, you don't see Merry, Pippin, Legolas, Gimli or Boromir making little speeches before they turn from one orc to the next.

Which is a good part of why I was reluctant to have Aerlinn in a role playing game cursing / prophesying before every fight scene. If I were writing fan fiction, I would also use prophecy / cursing / wishing in moderation.

I also find that curses, prophecies and wishes are very much akin. I'd like to think Aragorn's warning to Gandalf regarding Moria was a prophecy rather than a curse or a wish, but if a player character did something similar in a game, as a game master I would likely end up using the same game mechanics regardless.

But this is all subjective opinion. I think Words matter in Middle Earth. I just don't think they are or should be used lightly, casually or often. If prophesying makes things so, Gandalf would have given everyone a lecture on Prophesying 101 before setting out from Rivendell. Clearly, a wizard or a heir of Númenor would be better than most at using words, but they don't totally monopolize the ability.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by blantyr

What I don't recall seeing is relatively minor characters at not particularly important times attempting to foretell victory.

There is a good point glossed over here.

In fantasy stories almost all foretelling comes true, at least in a sense, though it may be a point in the story that it does not come true as originally understood. But in real life prophecies, even when issued by a top financial wizard or a top political columnist, or one of National Enquirer’s ten top prophets, never come true, or don’t come true more often than expected by non-believers.

I recall some years ago in The Globe & Mail, Toronto’s chief financial newspaper, they set up a feature to encourage investment by showing how easily one could make money in this way. The writer made fake investments using non-existent money, to demonstrate how one could make one’s fake portfolio grow in value. The feature was stopped when the writer had lost sufficient fake funds to destroy his credibility.

Readers of fantasy books like to believe, or perhaps better like to pretend, that the words spoken on one’s deathbed will invariably come true. But they mostly know in fact that such words have no more likelihood of coming to pass than words spoken at any other time in the speaker’s life.

How did Saruman become such a bad prophet compared to Gandalf? Because in fantasy worlds being a bad person also makes one a bad prophet.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by blantyr

It's just based on examples in the book. In my large post above, note the prophecies made just before conflict involved major characters just before critical conflicts. The speakers were Gandalf, the Witch King, Frodo, and Eowyn. The conflicts were critical to the history of Middle Earth.

The thing is, if it's not something major, what's the point of a prophecy? Actually, let me rephrase that. I don't like the word prophecy because it seems limiting to "official" declarations, like Malbeth's famous prophecies. I prefer the word foretellings, because often the prediction is mingled with personal feelings and the "seer" is unaware of making a prophecy. So, once again, if I say, "I have a feeling I will write a post in about ten seconds", and then write a post in ten seconds, that's not something you'd call a prophecy. Even if I wasn't talking about myself.

Many foretellings are invoked by the expectations or consequences of a major event, but I think that this is due to the fact that foresight comes to people with a strong innate spirit (wondering, is there any exception to this?) which is something that strengthens during a big conflict. Also, these are the kind of people that would become heroes in that conflict.

Originally Posted by blantyr

You mention elven / Numenorian foresight. The primary examples in LoTR are Aragorn's warning to Gandalf about entering Moria, Aragorn warning the forces of Saruman at Helm's Deep, and Aragorn telling Eomer they would draw swords together again, though all the power of Mordor would separate them.

That's true, but I meant more the general references to "Numenorian/Elvish blood". Being born to one of the higher houses gives you the strong willpower that also characterizes the said houses. The ability to foretell things seems to increase with the "purity of bloodlines", so to speak. Which is not to say that only Elves/Numenorians can do it.

Originally Posted by blantyr

What I don't recall seeing is relatively minor characters at not particularly important times attempting to foretell victory. In a role playing environment, the power of prophecy would be ever so abusable if anyone at any time as often as he liked could yell "I'm going to kill you" every time he draws his sword. Magic ought not to be that quick and easy. Thus, you don't see Merry, Pippin, Legolas, Gimli or Boromir making little speeches before they turn from one orc to the next.

I would disagree on the basis that you're saying it's the speaker that causes the magic of foresight/curse/prophesy. I think that foresight is a power, not a weapon. You can't decide to use it when you think you need it. It doesn't work that way. It's not the same as Gandalf's Word of Command. You don't call on it, it calls on you.

As for foretelling victory, why, you can't do it unless there's a conflict, otherwise there would be no one to be victor over! But here are some examples of foretelling without relating to a battle conflict or the major conflict at the given moment:

But foresight came upon Felagund as she spoke, and he said: "An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfil it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit." ~Of the Noldor in Beleriand, The Sil

Melian said nothing to him at that time, but afterwards she said to Galadriel: "Now the world runs swiftly to great tidings. And one of Men, even of Beor's house, shall indeed come, and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him, for doom greater than my power shall send him..." ~Of the Coming of Men Into the West, The Sil

The Turin looked out westward, and he saw far off the great height of Amon Rudh; and unwitting of what lay before him he answered: "You have said, seek me in Dimbar. But I say, seek me on Amon Rudh!" ~Of Turin Turambar, The Sil

Originally Posted by blantyr

I also find that curses, prophecies and wishes are very much akin. I'd like to think Aragorn's warning to Gandalf regarding Moria was a prophecy rather than a curse or a wish, ...

I prefer to think of it as a bad feeling, which, in essence, is foresight. So I suppose we're approaching the same idea from different ends here. I think that many times people do not realize that they are foretelling an event when they say something, since the foretelling or sursing has a lot to do with wishing it to be that way or feeling that way about it.

Originally Posted by bantyr

But this is all subjective opinion. I think Words matter in Middle Earth. I just don't think they are or should be used lightly, casually or often. If prophesying makes things so, Gandalf would have given everyone a lecture on Prophesying 101 before setting out from Rivendell. Clearly, a wizard or a heir of Númenor would be better than most at using words, but they don't totally monopolize the ability.

Once again, I'm the last person to deny the power of Words, especially in ME. But it's not people who master their power (in the sense of foresight/prophecy/curse), but the words that sometimes come to the people. So Gandalf couldn't have possibly given a lecture on it. Nor could they possibly be used lightly and often.