Which Vala tripped Gollum?

[blantyr]

"Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice.

'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'"

See Did the Ring speak on Mount Doom?, an article on an obscure Tolkien web site.

As I've stated before, before many physical battles, there is an exchange of prophecy that often foreshadows the result of the conflict. Examples...

"By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!"

"You shall not pass!"

Then there is my favorite example, a non-mage speaking Words of Power.

"Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"

A cold voice answered: "Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."

A sword rang as it was drawn. "Do what you will; but I will hinder it if I may."

"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"

Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. "But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you if you touch him."

Then there is the one where you have to remember that in Gondor, the first hour of the day begins with sunrise. Here again the Lord of Nazgul is slain with Words.

"You cannot enter here," said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. "Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!"

The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.

"Old fool!" he said. "Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!" And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.

And in that very moment, away behind in some courtyard of the city, a cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of war nor of wizardry, welcoming only the morning that in the sky far above the shadows of death was coming with the dawn.

And as if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns, horns, horns, in dark Mindolluin's sides they dimly echoed. Great horns of the north wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last.

In Middle Earth, Words have Power. A good deal of the subtle or not so subtle magic comes from the Words exchanged before conflict, in shaping the result before the conflict begins. In the last above example, the Witch King had to kill Gandalf "now" or his master would fall into nothingness. Gandalf wasn't just defending the gate. He was swinging for a home run. The moment the Witch King turned from the gate, when he left Gandalf unslain, his master was doomed.

To me, "If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom" is a prophecy, warning and command given by the Ring itself, in the spirt of it's creator, Sauron. It is to me significant that while all the free peoples from Gandalf to Bilbo to Frodo to the Elves of Mirkwood, to Faramir to even Sam, all showed Gollum mercy, the Ring, a proxy for Sauron, did not.

Now, it could be that this was influenced by Eru or one of the Valar as well, but to me it seems that evil destroyed evil. The Ring destroyed itself as a result of its own destructive malice. That is a major theme of the work from my perspective. To me, the Valar having to intervene at that moment would reduce the sense of wonder.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by blantyr

To me, "If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom" is a prophecy, warning and command given by the Ring itself, in the spirt of it's creator, Sauron. It is to me significant that while all the free peoples from Gandalf to Bilbo to Frodo to the Elves of Mirkwood, to Faramir to even Sam, all showed Gollum mercy, the Ring, a proxy for Sauron, did not.

I've often considered this curse to perhaps be partly the Ring and partly Frodo speaking. I can't believe I forgot this, but actually one of the most convincing theories I've heard on this subject (although I can't recall where) was that Gollum fell because the Ring was still obeying the curse - because, despite the digit being severed, it was still on Frodo's finger (although he was, of course, not actually wearing it when the curse was uttered).

I any event I do like the theory that the Ring accidentally destroyed itself.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

I definitely class Gollum's death as one of those events that are both foreshadowed (by the author) and also foretold (by a character). In this case it's also a curse, as Zigûr describes. I also very much like the idea that it is a combination of Frodo and the Ring speaking. Sure, the Ring can't speak for itself, but it can possess a Bearer to some extent, especially if they are weakened. The Ring has, in some way, it's own will. Just as Frodo and Sam sometimes feel like they might just lay down and die rather than complete the Quest, perhaps the Ring too sometimes craves oblivion nearly as much as it craves reunion with its Master. In a similar way, one can imagine Gollum sensing on a subconscious level that once he has regained the Ring there is no way he can remain the Bearer unless he denies everyone else the chance to take it...

In any case, the idea of the Ring cursing Gollum and thus inadvertently ensuring its own destruction is quite deliciously ironic.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

The Ring has, in some way, it's own will. Just as Frodo and Sam sometimes feel like they might just lay down and die rather than complete the Quest, perhaps the Ring too sometimes craves oblivion nearly as much as it craves reunion with its Master.

I still doubt that the Ring intended its own destruction. Think of how much pressure it was exerting on Frodo at Mt. Doom to prevent him from throwing it into the Fire. And it succeeded. I think the "will" of the Ring was to stall Frodo until Sauron could come in person and deal with the pretender. It was Gollum who was the wild card, playing the unforeseen part Gandalf had intuited.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I still doubt that the Ring intended its own destruction. Think of how much pressure it was exerting on Frodo at Mt. Doom to prevent him from throwing it into the Fire. And it succeeded. I think the "will" of the Ring was to stall Frodo until Sauron could come in person and deal with the pretender. It was Gollum who was the wild card, playing the unforeseen part Gandalf had intuited.

I don't think that when the Witch King claimed, "This is my hour," that he was thinking of a cock crowing. That was the furthest thought in his mind. I don't think when he claimed "No mortal man may hinder me!" he saw Eowyn as a woman. Nor do I think all the implications of the curse "If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom" were well thought through when the curse was uttered. This would be true whether it was the Ring that was behind the curse, Frodo, or some combination of the two. In hindsight, the wording of all three curses were flawed.

In many of the exchanges of curses / prophecies that precede physical conflicts, it seems that the bad guy slips up the wording, leaving a critical loophole which the good guys, intentionally or not, end up exploiting.

It's common to encounter something similar in role playing. I played in a Middle Earth role playing game a while back. Both myself and the game master were aware of the notion of prophecies spoken before battle in Middle Earth. I was always fearful of invoking such word magic for fear I'd mess up the phrasing. Game masters are notorious for granting the letter of a wish, curse or prophecy while perverting the spirit. It seems Tolkien wrote in a similar spirit.

I also wasn't sure my character had enough Fea to speak a binding prophecy / curse / wish in her game world. Can any individual in Middle Earth, before a conflict, speak Words of Power? Or are only the Great speaking at the height of a major point of history granted the privilege?

I can't see Frodo speaking Words of Power in order to get away from some farmer without losing any purloined mushrooms. None of the conflicts my player character was involved with were on the scale of events encountered by the Fellowship of the Ring. It generally didn't feel right for Aerlinn to stand tall and issue orders to the various Servants of the Enemy she encountered. Thus, she didn't.

But she and I were aware that the possibility of speaking such Words was there.

[Galadriel55]

Why woudn't someone be able to speak Words of Power (by which I assume you mean curse or prophecy)? They clearly were able to do that, so why do you say they can't?

People with Elvish and/or Numenorian blood have foresight, and they can predict some things. Those would not be "official" prophecies, but prophecies nonetheless. People with innate power have uttered curses and they came true; once again, some curses were "official" (see Isildur) and some were similar to prophecies.


I agree with what Inzil said and with your first response to him, but I just don't understand your second point there.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Why wouldn't someone be able to speak Words of Power (by which I assume you mean curse or prophecy)? They clearly were able to do that, so why do you say they can't?

People with Elvish and/or Numenorian blood have foresight, and they can predict some things. Those would not be "official" prophecies, but prophecies nonetheless. People with innate power have uttered curses and they came true; once again, some curses were "official" (see Isildur) and some were similar to prophecies.


I agree with what Inzil said and with your first response to him, but I just don't understand your second point there.

It's just based on examples in the book. In my large post above, note the prophecies made just before conflict involved major characters just before critical conflicts. The speakers were Gandalf, the Witch King, Frodo, and Eowyn. The conflicts were critical to the history of Middle Earth.

You mention elven / Numenorian foresight. The primary examples in LoTR are Aragorn's warning to Gandalf about entering Moria, Aragorn warning the forces of Saruman at Helm's Deep, and Aragorn telling Eomer they would draw swords together again, though all the power of Mordor would separate them.

What I don't recall seeing is relatively minor characters at not particularly important times attempting to foretell victory. In a role playing environment, the power of prophecy would be ever so abusable if anyone at any time as often as he liked could yell "I'm going to kill you" every time he draws his sword. Magic ought not to be that quick and easy. Thus, you don't see Merry, Pippin, Legolas, Gimli or Boromir making little speeches before they turn from one orc to the next.

Which is a good part of why I was reluctant to have Aerlinn in a role playing game cursing / prophesying before every fight scene. If I were writing fan fiction, I would also use prophecy / cursing / wishing in moderation.

I also find that curses, prophecies and wishes are very much akin. I'd like to think Aragorn's warning to Gandalf regarding Moria was a prophecy rather than a curse or a wish, but if a player character did something similar in a game, as a game master I would likely end up using the same game mechanics regardless.

But this is all subjective opinion. I think Words matter in Middle Earth. I just don't think they are or should be used lightly, casually or often. If prophesying makes things so, Gandalf would have given everyone a lecture on Prophesying 101 before setting out from Rivendell. Clearly, a wizard or a heir of Númenor would be better than most at using words, but they don't totally monopolize the ability.