Which Vala tripped Gollum?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I think Gollum tripped himself. Oh, but then that would make Gollum a Vala. Hmmm......

Actually, I used to wonder if Gollum hadn't in fact committed suicide by deliberately stepping close to the brink of the chasm and looking away. I rejected that when I read in HOME that Tolkien had considered that idea and decided against it. Still, maybe Gollum didn't make himself fall, but at the same time didn't care if he did. He could die with the Precious and save Frodo at the same time if it happened. And then Fate was free to finish things...

[Calacirya]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Actually, I used to wonder if Gollum hadn't in fact committed suicide by deliberately stepping close to the brink of the chasm and looking away. I rejected that when I read in HOME that Tolkien had considered that idea and decided against it. Still, maybe Gollum didn't make himself fall, but at the same time didn't care if he did. He could die with the Precious and save Frodo at the same time if it happened. And then Fate was free to finish things...

I believe that this idea is closest to the most probably truth, at least from the perspective of Gollum. He surely had no intentions of dying, but it wasn't a terrible end as long as he had the Ring. The carelessness of his misstep really brings foreshadowed elements together, such as:

As spoken by Eru in The Simarillion:

These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work.

And, arguebly, just as importantly, Gandalf tells to Frodo in The Fellowship of the Ring:

For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many – yours not least.

Just to name a poignant two.

[Sarumian]

It seems, that very moment was the time when little folk was in charge and great powers (warriors, kings, wizards, elves, wraiths, Sauron and even Valar) could just stand and watch. Of cause it was in the Music but I wouldn't describe it as Eru's intervention.

Gollum dancing on the edge shows us that his soul was not completely subjugated by The Ring as he still was able and free to do such a foolish thing! Imagine Sauron sitting there and saying: "What the hell you are doing! Stop it!!!".

But what made Gollum to fall? His fate? His fate was bound to The Ring. And I tend to think (Copiright ) that it was The Ring that made him to fall. Sauron put his malice into The Ring; he made it capable of bewitching and destroying whoever bore it. What he didn't expect, as it seems to me, is that The Ring's final "intention" was not only to return to its Master but to destroy him in the end - because self-destruction is inherent to evil as the example of Melkor shows. Dancing Gollum provided an excellent shortcut to destruction of Sauron and three others who used to bare The Ring, so The One didn't miss the chance. But it was neither a mere chance nor Eru-From-Machine.

[Calacirya]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

What he didn't expect, as it seems to me, is that The Ring's final "intention" was not only to return to its Master but to destroy him in the end - because self-destruction is inherent to evil as the example of Melkor shows. Dancing Gollum provided an excellent shortcut to destruction of Sauron

Wow, that is a truly profound idea. I never thought about it that way, but it does seem like a very likely thing that Tolkien would have conjured in his own mind. What a great thought.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

What he didn't expect, as it seems to me, is that The Ring's final "intention" was not only to return to its Master but to destroy him in the end - because self-destruction is inherent to evil as the example of Melkor shows. Dancing Gollum provided an excellent shortcut to destruction of Sauron and three others who used to bare The Ring, so The One didn't miss the chance. But it was neither a mere chance nor Eru-From-Machine.

If you're going to make that leap though, you might as well say that Sauron's impetus for diffusing his power into an inanimate object was also willfully self-destructive. That, because the "will" of the Ring was in effect Sauron's own essence. Evil may destroy itself in the end; in fact Tolkien's Middle-earth seems rife with examples of that. That doesn't mean though that evil desires its own end. Quite the opposite: Ungoliant, Saruman, and Shelob cling to whatever life is there for them. Sauron too rebuilds himself each time his physical body is "killed", a little weaker and bound to the world with every reincarnation. That doesn't stop his desire to live in the world, though.

[blantyr]

"Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice.

'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'"

See Did the Ring speak on Mount Doom?, an article on an obscure Tolkien web site.

As I've stated before, before many physical battles, there is an exchange of prophecy that often foreshadows the result of the conflict. Examples...

"By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!"

"You shall not pass!"

Then there is my favorite example, a non-mage speaking Words of Power.

"Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"

A cold voice answered: "Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."

A sword rang as it was drawn. "Do what you will; but I will hinder it if I may."

"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"

Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. "But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you if you touch him."

Then there is the one where you have to remember that in Gondor, the first hour of the day begins with sunrise. Here again the Lord of Nazgul is slain with Words.

"You cannot enter here," said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. "Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!"

The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.

"Old fool!" he said. "Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!" And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.

And in that very moment, away behind in some courtyard of the city, a cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of war nor of wizardry, welcoming only the morning that in the sky far above the shadows of death was coming with the dawn.

And as if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns, horns, horns, in dark Mindolluin's sides they dimly echoed. Great horns of the north wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last.

In Middle Earth, Words have Power. A good deal of the subtle or not so subtle magic comes from the Words exchanged before conflict, in shaping the result before the conflict begins. In the last above example, the Witch King had to kill Gandalf "now" or his master would fall into nothingness. Gandalf wasn't just defending the gate. He was swinging for a home run. The moment the Witch King turned from the gate, when he left Gandalf unslain, his master was doomed.

To me, "If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom" is a prophecy, warning and command given by the Ring itself, in the spirt of it's creator, Sauron. It is to me significant that while all the free peoples from Gandalf to Bilbo to Frodo to the Elves of Mirkwood, to Faramir to even Sam, all showed Gollum mercy, the Ring, a proxy for Sauron, did not.

Now, it could be that this was influenced by Eru or one of the Valar as well, but to me it seems that evil destroyed evil. The Ring destroyed itself as a result of its own destructive malice. That is a major theme of the work from my perspective. To me, the Valar having to intervene at that moment would reduce the sense of wonder.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by blantyr

To me, "If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom" is a prophecy, warning and command given by the Ring itself, in the spirt of it's creator, Sauron. It is to me significant that while all the free peoples from Gandalf to Bilbo to Frodo to the Elves of Mirkwood, to Faramir to even Sam, all showed Gollum mercy, the Ring, a proxy for Sauron, did not.

I've often considered this curse to perhaps be partly the Ring and partly Frodo speaking. I can't believe I forgot this, but actually one of the most convincing theories I've heard on this subject (although I can't recall where) was that Gollum fell because the Ring was still obeying the curse - because, despite the digit being severed, it was still on Frodo's finger (although he was, of course, not actually wearing it when the curse was uttered).

I any event I do like the theory that the Ring accidentally destroyed itself.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

I definitely class Gollum's death as one of those events that are both foreshadowed (by the author) and also foretold (by a character). In this case it's also a curse, as Zigûr describes. I also very much like the idea that it is a combination of Frodo and the Ring speaking. Sure, the Ring can't speak for itself, but it can possess a Bearer to some extent, especially if they are weakened. The Ring has, in some way, it's own will. Just as Frodo and Sam sometimes feel like they might just lay down and die rather than complete the Quest, perhaps the Ring too sometimes craves oblivion nearly as much as it craves reunion with its Master. In a similar way, one can imagine Gollum sensing on a subconscious level that once he has regained the Ring there is no way he can remain the Bearer unless he denies everyone else the chance to take it...

In any case, the idea of the Ring cursing Gollum and thus inadvertently ensuring its own destruction is quite deliciously ironic.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

The Ring has, in some way, it's own will. Just as Frodo and Sam sometimes feel like they might just lay down and die rather than complete the Quest, perhaps the Ring too sometimes craves oblivion nearly as much as it craves reunion with its Master.

I still doubt that the Ring intended its own destruction. Think of how much pressure it was exerting on Frodo at Mt. Doom to prevent him from throwing it into the Fire. And it succeeded. I think the "will" of the Ring was to stall Frodo until Sauron could come in person and deal with the pretender. It was Gollum who was the wild card, playing the unforeseen part Gandalf had intuited.