TIG XCIV– WHere the Stars Are Strange (Game thread)

[Pomegranate]

Eonwe: exactly. Three nights leave you with three names: Nog, G55 and an ordo. But you talk about revealing "them" - though there's only one person for you to reveal. (To be honest, I don't know if this actually matters, it was just a side note, but now it's annoying not to be understood)

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

Eonwe: exactly. Three nights leave you with three names: Nog, G55 and an ordo. But you talk about revealing "them" - though there's only one person for you to reveal. (To be honest, I don't know if this actually matters, it was just a side note, but now it's annoying not to be understood)

Oh, "them". I meant xem. Sorry.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Legate

That's basically what I think too. I never believed for a second that the Acolyte would be simply a Werebear, or anything that would kill every Night. If it had anything to do with the Acolyte, anyway.

I thought the narration was pretty clear on that fact, myself. Unless a "shadowy figure" isn't supposed to be suspicious.

Originally Posted by Pom

And one thing I'd like to know is where did we decide that Inzil is the acolyte and the acolyte is bad? I mean, Nog started it, obviously to get us away from himself, but besides him I think Legate (which doesn't really surprise me) and Shasta went along with it. How were you so sure, Shasta? That does make you look a lot worse in my head, at least until you explain (as well as the fact you wanted to try for double-lynch, which is scary business in general).

1. Inzil was hinting at something during Day 1. If you'll remember, Rikae mentioned it quite blatantly.

2. Nog's points about it. The fact that he was a wolf doesn't really matter - the Acolyte doesn't count for the innocents or the wolves; plus, every indication was that the Acolyte was some type of Werebear, with the Eruhen kill. Wolves have an interest in getting rid of the Werebear - besides that the Werebear could kill them at night, something they aren't usually worried about, the Wolves and Werebear traditionally cannot win together. I don't think Nog's points about Inzil being the Acolyte should be discounted just because he was a wolf.

3. (and really the best point) - He hasn't denied it. Every time the subject has gotten a little too close to someone asking him directly, Inzil has either avoided the question or changed the subject.

Now then, what was so scary about wanting to double lynch Nog (a Seer-dreamt wolf) and Inzil (who I'm convinced is the Acolyte, and want to lynch)? Let's look at the votes from yesterday -

Originally Posted by The Votes

Eonwe - Greenie (Eonwe 1)
Pom - Legate (Eonwe 1, Legate 1)
(Eonwe's reveal)
Inzil - Nog (Eonwe 1, Legate 1, Nog 1)
Lottie - Nog (Eonwe 1, Legate 1, Nog 2)
Nog - Eonwe (Eonwe 2, Legate 1, Nog 2)
G55 - Nog (Eonwe 2, Legate 1, Nog 3)
Sally - Nog (Eonwe 2, Legate 1, Nog 4)
Boro - Nog (Eonwe 2, Legate 1, Nog 5)
Shasta - Inzil (Eonwe 2, Legate 1, Nog 5, Inzil 1)
Eonwe - Nog (Eonwe 2, Legate 1, Nog 6, Inzil 1)
Lommy - Nog (Eonwe 2, Legate 1, Nog 7, Inzil 1)
Legate - Nog (Eonwe 2, Legate 1, Nog 8, Inzil 1)
Pitch - Nog (Eonwe 2, Legate 1, Nog 9, Inzil 1)

When I voted Inzil, Nog had 5 votes. Therefore, even if every person after me had voted Inzil, Nog would still have been lynched along with him.

Which, coincidentally, renders this point by Legate -

Originally Posted by Legate

BUT on second thought, no, really not - we should preferably try to vote for the same person in order to avoid a multiple lynch (or in the worst case, lynching the Seer along!!!!!!) - so in this light, Shasta's suggestion would really not look very good.

I mean, we don't know how many WWs have voted already, but given that there are FOUR of them, they could still steer the lynch in the way that there will be a double-lynch, even lynching Steve! So we should try avoid making it a possibility.

- utter bollocks, if you'll pardon the saying. Sure, the other three wolves could have voted Eonwe. That would just have required manipulation of the space-time continuum (at the point Legate said this, it was just him and Pitch left to vote), and would have put Eonwe at 5 and Nog at 6. Brilliant!

...Wait, what?

Originally Posted by Legate

He did not say it maybe, but he was playing with it dangerously by putting the second line of votes there.

See above.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Conclusions from above - I think Inzil is the Acolyte, I would ideally like to get rid of him before he can kill again, and some things Legate have said have been so far off the mark and unlike how I know Legate to act that it's basically Nog vol. II to my eyes at the moment.

(That is to say, I thought Nog was suspicious for defending G55's outburst, in total counter to how he would normally act, and now Legate, normally quite sensible, has been acting very crazy.)

[satansaloser2005]

So let me get this straight. So far, I've suspected the hunter (Rikae, on Day 1), the ranger (Galadriel, on Day every Day so far), the seer (Steve, see Galadriel), and one wolf (Nog, on Day 2).

Well, at least my gifted radar is still intact. >.<

Anyway, following this logic, and this lack of luck, Dun, Pitch, or Legate (my top pick) must be the Acolyte, and the other two wolves.


Or, as they say in Limerick....

I seem to suspect those with skills
Who then tend to be Nightly kills
Does this mean that Dun
Is really The One
Or one who ate Nerwen for thrills?


EDIT: x'd with two Shastas. Heyo.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Anyway, following this logic, and this lack of luck, Dun, Pitch, or Legate (my top pick) must be the Acolyte, and the other two wolves.

What?

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

What?

What? What's that face for? *blinks* Oh, I see. Fair enough, I suppose. I meant that one of them must be the Acolyte, while the other two are probably wolves. (Although good on you, mate. If I'd been a wolf, I would have omitted the comma there, the one between Acolyte and the wolves. Sharp eye, even though in this case it means nothing.)


Or, as they say in Limerick....

I see Steve-O has his eyes peeled
For anything we might reveal
Though my posts are bare
Of all lupine hair
I still must admire his zeal

[Eönwë]

Boro looks bad through association- either the wolves have latched onto him or he's one of them.

edit: forgot to click post, and now x-ed with the man himself

[Pomegranate]

Shasta: okay, the double-lynch-danger was me not counting the votes. Though technically, if of the rest one would've gone with you and then the three wolves would have voted for Eonwe, he would've gotten lynched. But I can see that's not exactly likely, so as I said, it's me not counting the votes.

And to your three reasons - the third does actually seem somewhat valid. However, to the first, I'm sorry what? Okay, it might be me not being able to read Inzil so theoretically I could've missed some signs he made, but I wouldn't say Rikae "mentioned it quite blatantly". All she said about him was that a) he wasn't contributing (in the beginning) and b)

Originally Posted by Rikae

I was going to vote for someone else, but the recent posts from

++Inzil

have a bad vibe to them, as if he's confident that he shifted the focus and can see one of the other suspects lynched. An innocent who dodged suspicion might be relieved, but would still be concerned about placing his own vote correctly and finding the actual wolves, and the tone of his posts seems off in light of that. In addition to my earlier suspicions it puts him in the lead.

which to me doesn't seem like screaming "He's acolyte!" , just a relatively simple suspicion from a person who doesn't know more than the ordos (though, obviously, whom we can trust).

And I still don't think that xem killing Eru shows surely and absolutely that acolyte's evil - xe has now killed on one night, and a person who didn't really contribute. It's really hard for me to believe that it would be as easy as a werebear. Even if xe's only on xeir own side, that doesn't absolutely mean his aim would be to kill us. It would be either too much for the village - having four wolves already - , or too hard for xem - if xe only kills once in a while, how on earth would xe possibly manage to get rid of all of us, both wolves and the villagers?

x/ed with Boro and Eonwe

[Inziladun]

I echo the thought that G55 was likely pegged as possibly the Captain, and targeted for that reason.

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

Legate. I was looking at him yesterday thinking, there's no reason an innocent person would react to Eonwe's revelation like that. I mean, yes, you can question that, you can 'not be sure' but if you don't know more than an ordo, I can see NO reason why you would dare that much with the life of our Seer. The only reason I could think for you acting like that would have been if you had been the real Seer and tried to save Nog without being exposed yourself. Now that we can be sure that's not the case, I don't think there's any explanation Legate could give that would make him less wolf-like in my head.

Legate's behaviour yesterDay regarding Steve's reveal was very similar to Nog's. And his pushing to have out any known, dreamed innocents right then just didn't seem like something someone as logical as Legate would do as an innocent.

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

And one thing I'd like to know is where did we decide that Inzil is the acolyte and the acolyte is bad? I mean, Nog started it, obviously to get us away from himself, but besides him I think Legate (which doesn't really surprise me) and Shasta went along with it. How were you so sure, Shasta? That does make you look a lot worse in my head, at least until you explain (as well as the fact you wanted to try for double-lynch, which is scary business in general).

I honestly have no idea why (innocent) people would be after me as the Acolyte.

We don't know what killed Eru Night 2, and we have no clear facts about the Acolyte's purpose or alignment. Period. My focus is on the Spies.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

2. Nog's points about it. The fact that he was a wolf doesn't really matter - the Acolyte doesn't count for the innocents or the wolves; plus, every indication was that the Acolyte was some type of Werebear, with the Eruhen kill. Wolves have an interest in getting rid of the Werebear - besides that the Werebear could kill them at night, something they aren't usually worried about, the Wolves and Werebear traditionally cannot win together. I don't think Nog's points about Inzil being the Acolyte should be discounted just because he was a wolf.

If the Spies are so concerned about the Acolyte, and they're convinced I am it, why didn't they target me last Night? Unless, as you're doing, they decided they could get me lynched toDay and save themselves another Night. Then Steve dies, and they have a clear path to victory.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

3. (and really the best point) - He hasn't denied it. Every time the subject has gotten a little too close to someone asking him directly, Inzil has either avoided the question or changed the subject.

Come on, is that really your "best" point?

Ok, I'm not the Acolyte. Satisfied?

x/d with Boro, Steve, and Pom

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Boro

And now, what I find curious, is Shasta tried a more subtle sew distrust about the acolyte yesterday.

Subtle? I thought I was being quite blatant. I don't trust the Acolyte, and I don't think anyone else should. Good try, Boro.

And another thing. Your post that was basically 'you just look so suspicious Nog' was way more over-the-top than anything I've said thus far. The similarity between that and how I remember Glirdan being was too uncanny for me not to mention it. You're really reaching incredibly far here.

Pom -

Originally Posted by Rikae

Now Inzil, come out and claim what you're trying to claim so we can all see how implausible it really is!

This is the post I was referencing when I said "blatant".

Originally Posted by Pom

And I still don't think that xem killing Eru shows surely and absolutely that acolyte's evil - xe has now killed on one night, and a person who didn't really contribute.

I recall Eruhen being quite a good contributor in the past. I think saying "oh, he didn't really contribute, that's all right then" is selling him a bit short - and the fact remains, the acolyte killed an innocent. Granted, we don't know for sure that it's going to happen again. But I for one think it's very likely. Why no one seems to be concerned about this is genuinely beyond me.

Originally Posted by Inzil

We don't know what killed Eru Night 2

Well, it wasn't a modkill (Nerwen would have said so) and it wasn't a wolf kill (that was Rikae in the narration), so...? I think that's pretty clear.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Ok, I'm not the Acolyte. Satisfied?

Cool. I don't believe you, but cool. Then what were you really doing Day 1?

[Eönwë]

Ok, let's entertain the possibility that Boro is a wolf.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

What bothers me about Boro is the way he painted G55 suspicious. To me her strong reaction to Rikae's question for Lottie looked very sincere indeed (as I said already back there). So Boro's attack looked to me like a wolf noticing a possible pray who has made herself vulnerable, and jumping for it. It's hard to see evil in a game, but it felt like a malvolent intent there.

Ok, it's weird for Nog to start defending people this early, but even if we just ignore that, his next post which mentions Boro is this:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I might vote for G55 or Boro, possibly Eruhen.

Now, in this space of time, he's suddenly put G55 at the top of his suspicion list (I think I may have to make a separate post on her and Nog later), but then still hasn't re-evaluated Boro. Obviously, we know he's a wolf now, but it seems like he's trying to contrive an argument against Boro. The thing is, with his 180 on G55, I might be tempted to believe that it was an intentionally bad argument that he knew he wouldn't have to commit to, which only makes it look like there's friction between them.

In the post I mentioned before the vote-post, there's also this:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Now what Greenie said about him walking away from a suspicion by ignoring it and "taking Greenie out from vote list", and what Legate said about his overall over-lenient manner are points I think merit considering as well.

Not really sure about what to do with this, but it does just seem like he's again trying to pile on more unsubstantiated arguments.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

G55 and Boro do post and they can be read - and Eruhen has said all the time he was busy - so he'll have a chance to explain him toMorrow. So I think we are making a decent decision.

Not sure how that justifies it, but ok.



Now, this post on Rikae is where it begins to get more interesting:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Inzil clearly bears the brunt of her suspicion - and the vote in the end (even and maybe importantly notwithstanding that she says she was going to vote someone else!). She suspects Eönwë somewhat (only makes one point in one post though), seems to be engaged with Lottie and is pretty nasty with G55.

And then there is this odd thing about wabbits and coyotes & liking Greenie's vote on Boro - which whatever it means seems to suggest something about Boro.

So if someone felt Rikae was a threath enough to kill her it might have been Zil, Boro, or looking at how G55 reacts to things, then her (although she should have packmates to talk sense to her not to react like that). Or then someone just wished it to look that way.

So here, while he is saying that it could be a variety of people, with the wabbit/coyote thing, it looks very much like he is implying that Boro is the innocent one.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So... if she hunted Inzil or Boro (two that would have seen most likely by what happened yesterDay), then she failed aka. the one she hunted is not a wolf.

Now it is also quite possible - and maybe even probable - that being the crafty player she was, she was not hunting any of those she suspected aloud.

Whatever the case in regards to the former, it looks fairly certain she tried to make herself look like a hunter (if she thought enough many would have gotten that Looney Tunes hint). So she was luring the wolves to try her (in case the wolves were not in her suspicions so that they dared to try it).

So here he again mentions Looney Tunes (which again subtly connects it more to Boro, considering his previous post). Then he tries to claim that she may not have even left a hint at all. So it's as if he's saying that his official position is that she didn't leave a hint, but then he's left us with the undertone that if she did, it was Boro. And he further muddies the waters:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

One of the basic hunter-strategies I would think, two versions of it would be applicable here.

a) You think you know Rupert Murdoch is a wolf but you stay quiet about him. Instead you give hints you are a hunter and suspect Bill Gates a lot in the open. Now if Rupert is a wolf, he might think that is his chance to get rid of the hunter and *pow* he dies trying it in the Night.

b) You think you know Rupert Murdoch is a wolf and you want to keep him at bay during the Nights to be able to play more - so you make an open threat to him by hinting you're a hunter and suspecting him a lot. (The second one isn't probably the best tactics as it dangers the use of your gift, but people have used it as well)

Just for completeness:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I mean yes, I can say Boro could be innocent, or then Zil could be innocent, or maybe Steve because she said she will "keep an eye on him", or... Which one that ingenius hint gives us to figure out?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'll make a list of sorts before I go, but meanwhile I'd wish to hear from Eönwë and Boro to tell us which is their situation: the thoughtless overconfidence of a hindsight, or wolvery?

Despite apparently having him as his top suspect the Day before, this is the first time he directly asks Boro anything, or directly communicates with him. Seems fishy.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Boromir88: I'm suspecting him still even if he has been acting more Boroesque toDay. All this Rikae-stuff makes me doubt though. My reason says Rikae did not hunt him (why would she, after that open hinting?), but did Borowolf count on it being bluff (or was he afraid she was the seer?) or was it some others who tried to capitalise on the interpretation that we would then suspect Boro on her death (quite schemy and daring wolves then)? The way he revealed his wolfPOV, or hindsight POV, with Eönwë's suspicions on me he was only too happy to continue makes me wonder as well. If innocent he should have realised there was no way of knowing whether Bom was a wolf or an innocent beforehand on D1.

Ok, now I've revealed and he knows he's going to die at some point soon, and addresses me:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I thought it was odd G55 and you came after me with such fervour and determination (and Boro parrotting you). So I was right. You think you have that nice numbers that even if a ploy is revealed toDay there are enough confusion around that you win nicely even if this scheme of yours backfires.

Heh, I can see Boro's signature behind this... a bit distracted, not his sharp self... right.

There. Immediately Boro becomes top suspect. Completely separating them.

And mentioning this whole Night-suspicion plan... sounds like maybe they did plan it because they knew they were vocal players and would have to use it to their advantage, and so create a divide in the village on either side of them, with a false sense of competition on either side- both led by a wolf. Sounds like a bit of a risky plan though.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And on the other thought, it is possible that after G55's, Boro's and Eönwë's pre-decided effort seemed to fail (I have not seen the guys to answer my question about their accusations), Eönwë felt too much pressure (for a good reason as I think most everyone - other than the wolves - were thinking he was making himself more suspicious than me with his "case"), so he decided to go for a fake reveal without the counsel of the others...

Again, a pre-decided effort. He brings an innocent into this too, and so it may well serve the wolves better to put in a wolf among his "revenge innocents", i.e. ones that he wants to take out in return for being suspected.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

We can't afford to lose an innocent in principle, but there sure are some chances (the Acolyte might not have a kill every Night, the ranger might save someone etc.). If we lynch Eönwë toDay, we're one wolf down, and you get one more dream (I'd suggest Boro or G55) while the ranger protects you. Then we'd have a second wolf, most likely. But you can of course come forwards and reveal the falsity of Eönwë - especially if you have other good news to bring.

More in the same post, implicating both of them. Again, once he's dead, it will make it look like they're both innocents. And one will be. So why not put in your fellow to look good as well?


And there end his posts on Boro as his desperation goes to the extreme. So, what does this show? I don't know. But they definitely have a weird relationship in this game.



Also, Legate has looked pretty bad since yesterDay, and this this from Day 1:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Just for further reference - I wonder if, in case Lommy is perchance innocent and Boro is perchance Wolf, there might not be attempt to save Boro by people voting Lommy. But that shall be seen.

Depending on the level of double-bluffing involved, it could look bad for either Lommy or Boro, unless he's attaching himself to two innocents.



So yeah, rather than making me more certain of anything, looking at this has just confused me more. Draw your own conclusions, innocents.


edit: grammar

[Boromir88]

Lovely, now the Ranger.

At least there's one dead wolf to follow, sometimes once we get that first one, the rest start falling. And Nog certainly leaves a lot of stuff to wade through. I only wish you didn't feel like you had to reveal yesterday. I mean, I understand why you did, but I was hoping if people could just stop and see Nog was acting completely irrational/paranoid whenever someone started suspecting him, that he was being far from the thoughtful, considerate Nog. But that post crossed with your reveal, and I threw my hands up, because my immediate reaction was...Seriously Eonwe? all that time I just spent on Nog...wasted.

Originally Posted by Pom

This didn't get too serious because after that Shasta left - however, there it is, trying to lure us at least a bit into the idea.

I'm rather suspicious of Shasta, but not for tossing out the double-lynch idea. Not all double-lynches are bad (my very first game the village won because of an orchestrated multiple like 5-person lynch...it was brilliant and just shows the brilliance of innocents when we can band together. But yeah, most double-lynches aren't orchestrated by innocents, rather happen randomly due to cross-voting messes or hijacked by wolves.

It's what Shasta said about my vote:

Also, Boro? Your most recent post? Looks exactly like Glirdywolf from the Alice in Wonderland game of Wilwa's - you know, the one where it turned out he really was a wolf who was that eager to bus a packmate. Not really helping your case there, buddy.

First off, I have no idea how I'm supposed to remember what Glirdan did in some other game years ago. Maybe I'm a stickler for this stuff, but that snipe doesn't sit well with me. "Looks exactly like Glirdywolf"...right "exactly" and since Glirdan bused the death of a packmate in some other game, I'm doing exactly the same now?

Look, everyone knows I have no problem getting packmates lynched when I'm a wolf. You don't have to reference another person, in a game years ago, and say "it's exactly the same!" to make this point. That comment just didn't sit well, because it's another over the top reaction..."Look everyone! Look what Boro is doing! It's exactly like another wolf, in this other game!"

Also, I find it rather curious this acolyte-focus similarity from Nog and Shasta yesterday. Nog, to save himself, tried to make us turn against the acolyte. Which, well might have worked since the role is still extremely mysterious. But try following Nog's argument and it made absolutely no sense. If he was an ordo (like he was trying to argue yesterday) there was just no way he could know what side the acolyte is on and what actions/powers the acolyte had.

A wolf wouldn't know either, but the very fact he argued the Acolyte must have been with the wolves, means the wolves have probably entertained the idea of trying to find the acolyte/turn the acolyte to their side. Now that we know Nog is a wolf, it would appear, based on his argument yesterday, the acolyte in fact is not on the wolf team yet. I don't know if the acolyte is on any team, could be on the acolyte team, but for the time being we can't get into these circular debates about what's the acolyte's role and what side he's on. We don't know, but it appears, based on Nog's posting yesterday, the wolves don't know either.

And now, what I find curious, is Shasta tried a more subtle sew distrust about the acolyte yesterday.

Seriously? Guys. Look at the Eruhen kill. It's pretty clear at this point that the Acolyte, if not a traditional werebear, at least has the power to kill by himself (I say him because Nog being a wolf doesn't mean his points about Inzil being the Acolyte aren't valid - I've thought so myself since yesterday, as did Rikae apparently).

Nog is a wolf. Fine. Lynch him tomorrow. Lynching one wolf out of four isn't going to have any short-term effects - if we lynch Inzil (who clearly, at this point, doesn't have the best interests of the village in mind), we drop the number of kills per night to one.

(bolding my emphasis)

Based Nog being ousted yesterday he tried the "hit us over the head" approach. "The acolyte is clearly on the wolf team! And I'm innocent, so even though I can't possibly know what the acolyte is doing, he's clearly for the wolves and we're all going to die tomorrow if you lynch me."

Shasta, tries to do the same, only not so "bash you over the head" with it approach. He accepts Nog's a wolf, but doesn't vote based on that, and instead tries to sew seeds of doubt about the acolyte. Again, who can possibly know this?

And I must ask, who would benefit more from trying to make us doubt the allegiance of the acolyte? I'm not saying maybe the acolyte is against us, I'm just saying I don't know. But I accept I don't know and I leave it at that. It would appear Nog (and therefor the wolves) don't know either, but that also means the Acolyte isn't on their side either. So, who then would benefit trying to get us to turn attention and lynch the acolyte? (Yes. That's a rhetorical question)

Edit: crossed since Eonwe's post #300