TIG XCIV– WHere the Stars Are Strange (Game thread)

[Thinlómien]

AAAAAAAAAAAARGH. I just lost a long post I had written, because Internet Explorer and my dad's computer suck. Not bolding any names anymore because it's difficult with this sad excuse of a touchpad/mouse.

To summarise: I suck. This game sucks. Couldn't go much worse, at least from my personal pov, if you think about who I have trusted and suspected so far. Serious rethinking in order, like I predicted late yesterDay.

I don't understand why 80% of toDay has been just discussion of the acolyte, and the only looks into Nog's posts have been by our seer. What's wrong with you people?

Boro and Zil look pretty innocent to me now, Legate and Shasta are weird (that obsession on the acolyte is not natural even for Shasta who can be a little single-minded at times ), Pitch is under my radar and I have a vague bad feeling about Pom. I will need to reread and think more, maybe make a list.

ps. Okay, I bolded, but crappily. I don't understand how Nog can use this touchpad daily without going mad...


edit: xed with Greenie and Legate

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Nogrod on Lommy

Day 1, Nogrod barely mentions Lommy at all. He mentions her in passing in a post on Pitch and another on Lottie, then near the end of the day he says this -

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Well, a fair 1½ hours until the DL. I'll try to make sense of a few things (Lommy-suspicion and Inzil's behaviour at least).

and then in #122 he defends her.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So Lommy "stretches points", uses the word "weird" too often and "defends Pitch" (which is then corrected as a misunderstanding)? Her guilt seems only too obvious...

I mean really?

What he's defending her against here is the votes she got from Eruhen (he calls it "bandwagoning in major scale" and G55 ("possible bandwagon".) It's interesting to note that most of what this post is about, seemingly, is less defense of Lommy and more a changing of his attitudes toward G55, who he started the Day very trusting of. The two (defense of Lommy and early defense of G55) actually look rather similar.

And that's all Nogrod says about Lommy on Day 1.

Day 2, Nog's #168:

Originally Posted by Nog

Well, anyway, you actually do quote my post where I explain my change of heart. I mean the sudden Lommywagon did raise some eyebrows and when I read your post where you explained your... well what could it be, change of heart (? ) to suddenly suspect Lommy when she started gathering suspicion... well that made me suspect you - and thus to reconsider the innocence of your outburst as well.

It was not only the fact that you suddenly jumped on the fast-emerging Lommy-train, but the way you did it. (Explained in my #122)

Heh, I saw Lommy posted about you confidence of being alive, to write such a strong "defence by attack" I'd say, so I'm not going to say anything more about it.

Again, more a justification of his suspicion of G55 than anything about Lommy. The only thing a little bit interesting here is that last comment, which is basically a tacit endorsement of what Lommy said earlier. I suppose it could be a way to subtly reinforce good vibes about Lommy, but it's such a small thing that I doubt it.

Originally Posted by Nog

I was willing to discuss with the people around then (about 15 minutes before the DL or something) of the possibilities between Bom, Boro and G55 but had to take a phone-call from my colleague and when I came back people were already voting for Bom which kind of made it futile to vote differently as I had nothing against Lommy.

Just go and check.

Here he's answering Pitch about the Bom lynch, and mentions that he had no reason to vote for Lommy as he had nothing against her. And he hasn't, so that's okay.

Nog's #201 is in answer to a post of Lommy's from earlier, and he's very neutral about it, just basically responding to something she said rather than attacking her or defending her at all.

A short quote from #228:

Originally Posted by Nog

I did change my mind because of the way you suddenly jumped on Lommy (there was a train emerging there) - and especially the way you did it (you underlined it was the substance of her posts but never said anything about it yourself).

Again in response to G55. Mentions again that Lommy was going to be bandwagoned.

Originally Posted by Nog

Lommy!: I think she acts like her normal self - which is to say quite little. She talks sense and I have nothing against her thus far - nor any reasons to trust her over the careful reasonableness -point.

This is what Nog had to say about Lommy from his list post, #234, right after Eonwe's reveal. Again, very neutral, nothing for or against.

And then he doesn't mention her again after that.

So, conclusions - well, there aren't really very many to be drawn here, to be honest. Nog barely mentioned Lommy, and when he did he was either kinda defensive or completely neutral. I suppose it could be a giant case of distancing, but there's not really anything to support that.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Legate

These were only questions, and completely "freely" phrased - a mere civilized way to ask you about something. Yet you are answering with rather defensive and sort of jumpy way at some moments. In contrary to what you say, I have *no* intention to lynch you for the sake of itself. But at least on first sight, I can't help to think you are making stuff up, or clutching to some pre-made points of your own.

"Defensive." "Jumpy." "Making stuff up." What did I tell you? Witchhunt. All me answering your questions did was give you more fodder for your witchhunt against me, because all you've mentioned are opinions that are designed to look like hard suspicions. Look at this -

This in particular sounds rather fabricated.

(in regards to this-)

I had originally forgotten about the fact that we could double lynch - I wanted Zil gone over Nog because I felt both were bad for the innocents, but killing Inzil would have dropped the nightkills from two to one (I still thought the Acolyte was going to kill the next night.) Then, after I voted, the idea of a double lynch was mentioned, which I thought was a fine idea - kill both with one lynch.

Now, you say this sounds fabricated. Obviously there's nothing I can say to that, since it's not fabricated. But it gives you an easy way to continue to suspect me, doesn't it?

I'm going to skip over all the bit about the Acolyte because it's clear that, whether you're innocent or evil, we just flat are not going to agree where he's concerned.

Based on that if I compare the possibility that you sincerely were thinking the thing you are now telling us you were thinking, and the possibility that you were thinking something completely different and are just making this all up now that you had to answer about it to other people, I must say the other one sounds far more probable and logical.

This is just the same point, restated in order to make it look like you have a bigger argument against me than you already do. Also, I said basically the same thing earlier in the day when I replied to Pom, so there's further proof I didn't make it all up just now.

[Eönwë]

Now what if we had a Legate, Shasta and Boro wolf team?
And all this argument is just to cause mass confusion.
Unlikely but just another (not-so) crazy theory to think about.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Red zone:

no one in particular

Orange zone:

Shasta

??? Zil ??? (might also go to grey zone)

Grey zone:

Boro - see above: I have no clue about him right now. Remembering from before, there is the "too nice..." thing from the first Days, but also the thing that I had made mental note about, which I had forgotten of course (and don't want to look it up right now in the middle of writing the post), but basically that there were some things he had said which sounded genuine

A Little Green - she didn't say anything suspicious or anything, but lately some stuff... I'm wondering about her suspicion of Steve yesterDay (which had its reasons, of course, even I thought that - but of course she might also have figured out the determined way of pursuing Nog was a knowing Seer pursuing a fellow Wolf - I mean, if she were a Wolf, she WOULD know the suspicion was spot on, and she could have figured out that such a determined pursuit was coming from Seer, and might have wanted to try to get him lynched... hmm, now that I thought about this, I might actually put her even to the orange zone cathegory...)

Yellow zone:

Pitch - does not sound like evil

Pomegranate - I've been trusing her all the time, the reason I just moved her into the yellow zone is that a few things she said lately made me uncertain, but maybe it's just that I got subconsciously unnerved by her suspicion of me.

Lommy - sounds better lately

Green zone:

Lottie

Sally

White zone:

Steve

Well - given, that there are still three Wolves, somebody has to be them, right? Hmm...

EDIT: x-ed with a host since Lottie

[Thinlómien]

Innocentish
Greenie
Boro
Zil

Unsure
Lottie - not too alarming anymore but kind of under my radar

Weird or vaguely bad feeling
Sally - I got a bit of bad vibes from something she posted, but I don't remember what
Legate
Shasta
Pom
Pitch

Suspicious
no-one

...great. I just made the headings and started throwing the people under them, and this is what I came up with. I don't really like the lack of real suspects, and I have the feeling I'm being fooled. If I had to guess, I would say the remaining wolves are Pom, Pitch/Sally and Legate/Shasta (both of them can't be innocently weird).


edit: xed with Shasta

[Thinlómien]

I'm happy Shasta's analysing Nog's interactions with people and I'm aware this will sound really weird coming from me - but I think me and Nogrod's interactions look worse than Shasta makes them look (let's face it - you could call it even sort of co-operation, and that's my mistake), so the fact that Shasta takes them so lightly makes me more suspicious of him. I don't think an innocent who logically cannot know I'm innocent would be able to read me and Nogrod's interactions with such lack of suspicion to my direction, whatever the final conclusion. Just sayin'.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I'm happy Shasta's analysing Nog's interactions with people and I'm aware this will sound really weird coming from me - but I think me and Nogrod's interactions look worse than Shasta makes them look (let's face it - you could call it even sort of co-operation, and that's my mistake), so the fact that Shasta takes them so lightly makes me more suspicious of him. I don't think an innocent who logically cannot know I'm innocent would be able to read me and Nogrod's interactions with such lack of suspicion to my direction, whatever the final conclusion. Just sayin'.

Originally Posted by myself

Now I'm really getting annoyed. Apparently everything I say or do is going to be suspicious to someone.

*throws hands up*

I'm done talking for now. I'm making myself far too easy for the wolves to lynch, at this point.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

A question that isn't even rhetorical but a serious one I'd like an answer for: why the blazes is everyone discussing the flipping acolyte? Has everyone forgotten we have wolves to catch? A dead wolf whose relationships with people we could go through? Yes, we shouldn't forget about the acolyte, but debating about her/him to this extent makes no sense. Not when we really have more substantial food for thought and discussion.

/rant

I'm going to continue the vote analysis I started earlier. Back soon.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

AAAAAAAAAAAARGH. I just lost a long post I had written, because Internet Explorer and my dad's computer suck. Not bolding any names anymore because it's difficult with this sad excuse of a touchpad/mouse.

To summarise: I suck. This game sucks. Couldn't go much worse, at least from my personal pov, if you think about who I have trusted and suspected so far. Serious rethinking in order, like I predicted late yesterDay.

Ok. Both of you, inhale? Yes? Exhale? K. Thank you.

[Loslote]

After Legate's weird flip-out over Steve not revealing the Ordo yesterDay, and his dogged (and, as it seems to me at least, flimsy and grasping-at-strawsy) pursuit of Shasta (who's seemed logical and genuine, if not always right, to me this whole game), I'm very much inclined to vote him toDay. Pitchie also seems off to me, but I'm less convinced of his guilt than of Legate's.

Obviously Steve is innocent, but Lommy, Sally, and Nate also seem pretty good to me, and I'm leaning innocent on Boro, Shasta, and Zil (though hardly definitively yet!). I have no read whatsoever on Greenie, and if there's anyone else playing, I've gotten so little a read on them that I've forgotten them entirely.

Obviously, this means that one of the people in my second category are evil. For now I'm thinking it'd be more likely to be Boro and Shasta - I'm more confident about the first three I mentioned, and Zil and Greenie, for some reason, don't strike me as all that evil this game (of course, they also don't strike me as all that innocent, but that's why they're in the categories they're in).

[A Little Green]

Legate is weird. His reaction to Steve's reveal has, I think, been discussed in sufficient length already. In addition to that, the following made my radars beep:

Originally Posted by Legate

Isn't it rather the sign of an innocent to have conflicting opinions about something?

I know it might be just an odd phrasing, but it looks like his "conflicting opinions" were something he had thought were supposed to be the sign of an innocent, if you get what I mean.

I'm very undecided about Lommy, who's so confused it looks both very innocentish (a wolf would, surely, have more than enough material by now to legitly suspect anyone she wished, or else keep us distracted with any number of unrelated topics) and evil (I could see a Lommywolf refraining from accusing people on the grounds of being confused; playing it safe, in other words). I'm more inclined to lean towards the first scenario, though.

I remember thinking yesterDay that Nog's wolvery makes Boro look shinier; don't remember what that referred to but I'm sure I'll find it.

I'm still halfway through a cursory re-read of the entire thread, will try to get that done in a few and see if something catches my eye.


EDIT: x-ed with Lommy and Shasta

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Lommy

I'm happy Shasta's analysing Nog's interactions with people and I'm aware this will sound really weird coming from me - but I think me and Nogrod's interactions look worse than Shasta makes them look (let's face it - you could call it even sort of co-operation, and that's my mistake), so the fact that Shasta takes them so lightly makes me more suspicious of him. I don't think an innocent who logically cannot know I'm innocent would be able to read me and Nogrod's interactions with such lack of suspicion to my direction, whatever the final conclusion. Just sayin'.

If this comes from a Lommywolf, my hat's off to her. Made me feel better about her, anyway; I don't think a wolf would come up with a point like that (objectively evaluating one's own communication with a packmate is pretty hard) and if she would, it'd take some guts to say it aloud. In short, feeling a tad better about Lommy.


EDIT: x-ed since my last

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Legate

A Little Green - she didn't say anything suspicious or anything, but lately some stuff... I'm wondering about her suspicion of Steve yesterDay (which had its reasons, of course, even I thought that - but of course she might also have figured out the determined way of pursuing Nog was a knowing Seer pursuing a fellow Wolf - I mean, if she were a Wolf, she WOULD know the suspicion was spot on, and she could have figured out that such a determined pursuit was coming from Seer, and might have wanted to try to get him lynched... hmm, now that I thought about this, I might actually put her even to the orange zone cathegory...)

Err - you do know that the exact same thing applies to yourself as well? The only difference between us with regards to Steve's case against Nog was that I had to vote and go to sleep immediately after it.

[Pomegranate]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Err - you do know that the exact same thing applies to yourself as well? The only difference between us with regards to Steve's case against Nog was that I had to vote and go to sleep immediately after it.

Exactly, Greenie. Which is actually pretty funny since Legate has gotten all the suspicion (at least mine) until now. I could do some looking at your posts.

[Thinlómien]

Eönwë and Lottie - after what we've seen toDay, do you really believe Shasta and Legate could be in the same wolf team?

Btw Eönwë since not many people answered your question, I agree with whoever it was (Zil?) who said the best time to reveal the dream would be before European bedtime today.

[Pomegranate]

Okay.

First of all, I'm still pretty sure that Legate's a wolf, to such degree that if he gets an innocent lynched toDay, I'd feel he's played very impressively. Because even if you suspected Eonwe however badly, when he revealed, an ordinary person would've at least looked back and checked the facts before thinking he's wrong for all. And because this has been very clear to me from last night onwards, I wouldn't actually be surprised if this - how should we call it? - debate of Legate and Shasta's was a wolfy plan of making Shasta look good when Legate was lynched. Because, as Lommy says, it is weird.

Other than that, I'll need to reread. I'm having trouble concentrating, but I feel that some of the non-suspected ones (sally, Greenie and to be objective, myself) would deserve some looking into. By making noise, players like Nog and Legate (Shasta? Boro (though that wolf-on-wolf would also be somewhat impressive)? Lommy?) give them an easy place to hide.

And a sidenote: I wouldn't be surprised if Inzil was the acolyte, looking back. However, unless the acolyte starts killing again, I think we should kill the spies first. That's the name of the game. I have heard all the arguments about this and don't think I need more evaluation, just wanted to make my opinion clear.

edit. x/ed since Lommy's #342

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Now what if we had a Legate, Shasta and Boro wolf team?
And all this argument is just to cause mass confusion.
Unlikely but just another (not-so) crazy theory to think about.

I'd be willing to consider the option of a Legate-Shasta-?Pitch? pack, at any rate.

EDIT: xed with a bunch

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I'm happy Shasta's analysing Nog's interactions with people and I'm aware this will sound really weird coming from me - but I think me and Nogrod's interactions look worse than Shasta makes them look (let's face it - you could call it even sort of co-operation, and that's my mistake), so the fact that Shasta takes them so lightly makes me more suspicious of him. I don't think an innocent who logically cannot know I'm innocent would be able to read me and Nogrod's interactions with such lack of suspicion to my direction, whatever the final conclusion. Just sayin'.

Hmm, in fact, this indeed made me somehow suspicious about Lommy again. It's not just the fact that it would look weird (because I know you do that), nor the fact that you said we might think it looks weird (because I know you do that as well), but also the elaboration on it and devoting one whole post to it... especially if Shasta turns out to be Wolf (and if now he is under some suspicion), this might also be a slight way to sort of suspect him (and in case he is lynched, to show that you are separed from him).

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

"Defensive." "Jumpy." "Making stuff up." What did I tell you? Witchhunt. All me answering your questions did was give you more fodder for your witchhunt against me, because all you've mentioned are opinions that are designed to look like hard suspicions. Look at this -

(in regards to this-)

Now, you say this sounds fabricated. Obviously there's nothing I can say to that, since it's not fabricated. But it gives you an easy way to continue to suspect me, doesn't it?

I was afraid you will say something like this, and therefore I am not talking anymore to you about this, because you are convinced I am evilly trying to frame you, which I said already last time I am not. So until you are willing to reevaluate and reconsiderate the possibility that it is not so, the debate makes no sense. If you have pre-determined opinions, you can hardly believe you are deciding objectively (or, as much "objectively" as one can). That is not asking you to stop suspecting me, by any means, but merely appeal to bring that to your attention that it might not be as you project - at least on the level of discussion. If you are innocent, I am warning you that you are having a tunnel vision in that I am writing everything with some evil intent. Your unwillingness to acknowledge this thus far (despite me telling this to you already before, only in different words) makes me only support my belief. And no, that is not predetermined answer (as you would most likely say based on how you've been reacting this far), but direct response based on this and only this reaction of yours. In case you are a Wolf (which I now believe), it of course makes perfect sense, because you try to disqualify suspicions against yourself (or pass it on me, if you can, even better).

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

First of all, I'm still pretty sure that Legate's a wolf, to such degree that if he gets an innocent lynched toDay, I'd feel he's played very impressively. Because even if you suspected Eonwe however badly, when he revealed, an ordinary person would've at least looked back and checked the facts before thinking he's wrong for all.

I did it, but only later. Do you remember everything e.g. I have written in the game? Probably not. If you are indeed suspecting me heavily and if I now told you that I am the Seer, how would you react? Probably the first reaction would be diselief at least. Maybe then after reading some old posts and seeing them in different light, you would reconsider. But if you wrote your first post without looking back, who knows how it would look, right?

And because this has been very clear to me from last night onwards, I wouldn't actually be surprised if this - how should we call it? - debate of Legate and Shasta's was a wolfy plan of making Shasta look good when Legate was lynched. Because, as Lommy says, it is weird.

For further reference: If Shasta is really a Wolf, this makes Nate look rather good in my book. However, in case he wasn't, then if Nate was a Wolf instead, it would be very nasty way to connect two innocents.

EDIT: x-ed since my last