“Thee” and “thou” in “The Lord of the Rings”

[Galadriel55]

Hurray for brother languages!

Originally Posted by Legate

Otherwise, the Hobbits tend to address other people by the polite plural, and for example when they first meet Strider, they call him that way.

I haven't thought of that. They do in the Russian translation as well, and somewhere along the conversation Strider calls Frodo ty, and then explains that he is used to that form. After that, they address each other familiarly.

And that reminds me - Butterbur and Nob use the formal as well in my translation.

Originally Posted by Legate

In Czech, you could theoretically use the singular form in derogatory sense (as the W-K or even Éowyn towards him might be assumed to do), to someone whom you actually should address by the polite plural, but you decide not to in order to mock him. It brings to mind some 17-century colonialist guy addressing primitive natives in singular.

That's interresting. As far as I know, the polite plural is relatively modern in history terms. Only a couple hundred years. The earlier Zhars, and before them - princes, were always called ty. So for me, when I see Theoden, Elrond, Denethor, and other rulers being called ty, I think "ancient".

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I haven't thought of that. They do in the Russian translation as well, and somewhere along the conversation Strider calls Frodo ty, and then explains that he is used to that form. After that, they address each other familiarly.

Wait, do you actually say that they added such a thing into the book?

And that reminds me - Butterbur and Nob use the formal as well in my translation.

Indeed they do so in Czech as well, I guess that's the polite manner of the businessmen, being polite to your customers.

That's interresting. As far as I know, the polite plural is relatively modern in history terms. Only a couple hundred years. The earlier Zhars, and before them - princes, were always called ty. So for me, when I see Theoden, Elrond, Denethor, and other rulers being called ty, I think "ancient".

That's true, the polite plural is a rather modern invention in general. But now that I think of that, in Czech, calling nobles "ty" probably happens mostly only in fairytales, and in the few old sagas we have (or rather I am thinking of the one collection of old sagas which was written down in the 19th century), otherwise, an average person does not get to read things where a king is called "ty", so it sounds probably even much less natural than in many other languages, simply because of the lack of old sources.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Wait, do you actually say that they added such a thing into the book?

Yep. I don't remember exactly when he says it, but Aragorn says something to Frodo, and then adds: "I will call you ty, and call me likewise. We* do not speak differently." And Frodo answers: "Speak as you are used to."

...Or something to that effect.

It just sounds terribly weird if two unknown adults begin with calling each other vy and go to ty in a matter of mintes. However, it is a common thing to say "call me ty" to someone whom you are talking to, one of the reasons being to befriend them or make them feel comfortable.

The most interesting thing that I just realised is that in my translation, only the hobbits ever use "vy". I do not remember anyone else saying it. This would sound rather weird if it was in English, but I must say it adds a certain charm to the Shire.



*We meaning his, er, circle of friends (as assumed upon rereading, the Rangers), not him and Frodo

[Galadriel55]

I came across another quote that I don't believe was mentioned here before:

Then Glaurung stirred for the last time ere he died, and he spoke with his last breath, saying: "Hail Nienor, daughter of Hurin. We meet again ere the end. I give thee joy that thou hast found thy brother at last. And now thou shalt know him: a stabber in the dark, treacherous to foes, faithless to friends, and a curse unto his kin, Turin son of Hurin! But the worst of all his deeds thou shalt feel in thyself."

~Of Turin Turambar, The Sil, as well as The Death of Glaurung, COH.

Glaurung could easily be talking down to Nienor, like he did before to Turin. After all, he knows that he dies victorius: he succeeded in demolishing the family. Or, maybe, he's being sarcastic and addressing Nienor like a friend and equal. Or maybe he forsees that they are equal by their death. It's a funny thing how they all died in basically the same place, Glaurung, Nienor, Turin, and Gurthang. And later Morwen.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

It's a funny thing how they all died in basically the same place, Glaurung, Nienor, Turin, and Gurthang. And later Morwen.

Funnily enough, I don't find it all that strange. I would have found it more intriguing if they had died in places that were somehow relevant to their births or later lives.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Funnily enough, I don't find it all that strange. I would have found it more intriguing if they had died in places that were somehow relevant to their births or later lives.

No, I don't find it strange that they all came together upon death. It's what they've been trying to do all life - find each other. So that place is relevant to their lives.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

No, I don't find it strange that they all came together upon death. It's what they've been trying to do all life - find each other. So that place is relevant to their lives.

You do have a point there. I wonder, though, why Glaurung should be with them.