Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Nessa Telrunya

Well, good Day, and many excuses for my absence!

And to move on to more productive matters.... This will be just as difficult for the wolves, yes? They won't know who it is they kill, so our information is equal.

.

Don't be silly, the wolves know not to kill each other! And even if they help lynch a cobbler it isn't a disaster. It is a perfectly valid tactic for a cobbler to take a bullet for the pack..especially if they can continue to cobble in Mandos without risk of being denounced. When there are so few knowns how much easier for a cobbler to pose as a misguided innocent. And there are three of them.

At the moment the wolves know something about 2 others. On the side of the angels there are also three people who know something but only about one other person each. Don't underestimate the situation.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

A wolf(g)ang wouldn't probably have made those suggestion he made about the wolves willing to [MAJOR PART MISSING FROM HERE - ADDING IT TO THE NEXT POST: WHAT FOLLOWS IN THIS PARAGRAPH IS ABOUT BORO ALREADY AND NOT ANG ANYMORE] him. It's probably not enough to vote for lynching him toDay, but like some say, I'll be watching...

Okay. I must have clicked something very wrong while typing as there clearly are like many sentences missing from here.

What I was trying to say about Ang and Boro is the following:

Ang probably wouldn't have made the suggestions on double-lynches or speculations about wolves willing to send one of them to Mandos if he was a wolf. Too attention-grabbing and wrong.

Boro says he has a Twitter-impression on my posts, I have an Fb-impression on him. It's not enough for me to vote for him toDay, but I'll be watching.


Sorry.

(I hate using a laptop with no mouse as it tends to do all kinds of pickings of it's own...)

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

It looks like Rikae has really thought this out (well of course she has, but I'll say that just to honour her publicly).

But if all the game was banter about more or less unrelated topics I see it hard to call it a werewolf game. Random chatting is what one does in the messenger. (And no Mith, I'm not thinking about you as a prime example of that here. *cough Lottie/Shasta cough*
...

But it wasn't all the game was it? It was the first page of the first day when many were asleep or at work. If we all waited until there was something serious to say then we would never get started. I don't think it was all random chatting - Nerwen seemed to identify a confession from Loslote!. Later we may see significance in whom someone whose role we identify has name checked or not. Be able to discern whether someone's banter was the careless chat of a bored innocent or a cobbler's smokescreen. So I do think it is a bit early to get sanctimonious about playing style especially of those who made the effort to show up and get the ball rolling. As a wise man once said this isn't a professional werewolf league... chance remarks often give away more than a studious essay.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Agan

Phantom are you keeping in mind that the seer can only dream of dead players after her death?

What?! Seriously? *rereads*

Okay then... Yeah, that changes everything I'd say. Is the Dead-dream always about the Dead as well? It is, isn't it?

Well, so much for that then. If that's the case, then as usual the Wolves will kill the Seer on the very first Night if given the chance. BUT- what is different is that it should probably be much tougher to spot the Seer in the early going as there really isn't any need for him to leave clues, as he can always reveal after death so long as a Dead-Living transfer player is still alive to bring his dreams back. Should the Lovers and Glorfy be downed early, at that point I think the Seer would have little choice but to semi-out himself.

All right- off to work now! But I should be able to keep tabs a bit and post while at work. We'll see.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by the phantom

1) There is absolutely no point to the Lovers hinting in any way towards themselves or even towards their partner, for it will be incredibly obvious once one of them comes back to life that he can be trusted, at which time he can say, "I'm so-and-so, and my partner is ______ !" and then bang, living and dead all know the identities of the two lovers. The Lovers should try and avoid death at any cost early on.

Like I said. Although as Rikae told us, there is a possibility that they both die before the one gets back - and the use of the knowledge about their identities isn't any advantage as they will both die then without any help from the wolves. The lovers help to us is that one of them goes and picks some info from Mandos and shares it here. Then they are gone.

2) The Seer should commit suicide right away.

Like I said in #40, in this game the seer should die rather early than late (before the lovers or the ranger), but hopefully not like toDay. In Mandos the seer can only dream of already dead people, so we'd do fine if the seer would get there packed with at least a few dreams.

3) Glorfindel should... um... I don't know. Commit suicide soon to gain double protections and give us a trusted source until the baddies are forced to flush a kill on him in order to re-dead him? Or stay alive as long as possible to be a late-game news bearer between the threads?

The ranger would be the most powerful visiting Mandos late in the game picking the maximum information and using her/his double-protections to a maximum effect in a small village.

4) Hunter should.... stay alive until a revived innocent can bring him a target from the Seer on the Dead Thread?

A good plan indeed! Especially with the illogical hunter.

5) Wolves and Cobblers- should kill the Lovers and Glorfindel and the Hunter, and perhaps leave the Seer completely alive? Should the Wolves kill the Cobblers? I realize the Cobblers can eat up the lynches late in the game and clinch the win with their votes, but I'd say these Cobblers are going to be particularly blind as they don't even know the score and whether or not it is possible to gain a sacrificial victory. They might be just as useful on the Dead Thread trying to gain real info there and giving the suspected living Wolves extra votes. Not to mention they could do Seer impersonations to keep between-thread info from being uncontested.

The wolves need the lovers and the ranger like now. I think it depends on the wolves - and how this game starts on them - whether they think they should pick the seer or whether the seer is less dangerous in here (if the seer never dies, no one's going to learn anything from anyone for sure - and the cobblers & wolves can run amok here). The cobblers might actully be more dangerous in Mandos than in here, at least early on - here they know nothing but in Mandos they might have better chances of getting the picture.

On tp's latter suggestions I think they were mostly overtly optimistic (not taking into consideration some obvious problems or rule-limtations), or then I just didn't understand some of them.

But this is a very good one everyone should at least think about:

Originally Posted by phantom

the Dead can indirectly pass information to the Living. The rules say that the narration will reveal each person who receives the extra Dead vote that day. What if the Dead agreed to always give their extra vote to whichever person the Seer dreamed to be innocent!! If we agree to this, then we could pass every innocent dream from the dead Seer to the Living

So if and when the goodies take control of Mandos, that indeed is a way to send a message of a known innocent - and the ranger can play nice "cat and mouse" with the wolves if they think they can pick the known innocent out during the Night.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Nessa Telrunya

And to move on to more productive matters.... This will be just as difficult for the wolves, yes? They won't know who it is they kill, so our information is equal.

Originally Posted by Nessa Wolfrunya, WW LXXXV

My hint was that if she knows something we don't, it's suspicious. After all, the wolves all know something we don't: who to kill.

Hmm...

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Brilliant in the sense of being dead and losing ....

Mith you know that's not what I meant.

Originally Posted by Rikae

One lover needs to be alive to bring the other back, so if the wolves manage to kill the second lover while the first is dead, both stay dead.

So the remaining lover should probably consider revealing only if the ranger is still alive.

Originally Posted by the phantom

What?! Seriously? *rereads*

Okay then... Yeah, that changes everything I'd say. Is the Dead-dream always about the Dead as well? It is, isn't it?

Hmm what do you mean by this?
Too bad though, it would've been great if your plan had worked. Now we need to think of something else.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, so upon going through all people, I also made a list... but not sure if it is of much help in most cases. Most people have been either not saying much or not being around at all. I assume once I go to sleep, the Americans will come out of their hideouts, but well...

Shasta - not much of an info from the beginning banter-posts, so no idea
Nogrod - looks sort of like a classic Nogrod, for now, no special feelings of guiltiness nor innocence; I agree with him about Ang, though - of course unless he's saying it to support a fellow, then again, why would he do it already so soon in the game...
Aganzir - active, looks more like her innocent self (after the last game, I am becoming sort of more confident about trusting her... so hope it doesn't turn around!)
Glirdan - was he around at all?
A Little Green - ditto
elronds_daughter - not much info, is there..
Mänwe - basically popping in and not saying anything, but being well familiar with lynching him on Day 1s by my own hands, I am NOT going to do it toDay - there's been basically nothing he said, anyway
Nerwen - posted sort of in a typical Nerwen-y way, so I cannot say anything one way or the other
Loslote - like I said earlier, I'm getting very Cobblerish vibes from her. Though not sure if I want to vote her. Main reasons would be these: first, if she is a Cobbler, then I would really prefer to vote somebody who reeks more of Wolf. Lynching Cobblers in this game actually does not help much, quite the opposite, so here you go. And then, I am not sure when it was the last time when she ended up being voted for quite early, but I think it's been quite recently and that it comes pretty often. So I am sort of not wanting to do that lest I have really good reasons to. Which I don't, and see above.
Wilwa - no word from her
Legate - that's me
Lommy - that's her. Anyway, I think there is actually something rather awkward about Lommy, her comments don't seem like that of her usual self. She had once called me "a hog on laughing gas" (when I was innocent), so I think it's not unfair if I call her in return "running like a headless chicken", because that's exactly what it seems like. Still, wait to see what more comes out of her.
Nessa - her only post gives me a sort of "???" vibes, but nothing more than that. Again, too little info.
Blind Guardian - ?
satansaloser2005 - not much of an idea either
the phantom - his posts, after the initial nothing, actually suddenly started to be surprisingly substantial (which I would not have expected from him on Day 1) - and make me think fairly enough of him
Boromir88 - well of the "louder" players he is probably the only one who casts some shadow, in my opinion, his sudden "crusade against pessimism" and all that seems a bit like programmed to me, but maybe it just seems to me. But curious.
Mithalwen - given how much she is around, she had said very little. Sort of under the radar. I am watching her.
Anguirel - like I have said, not much experience with him; he seems active, but that of course can mean anything. Not probably voting him toDay, though - there are lots of other people who are not at least equally active. Active means that you can read something about him, so I might just as well go for somebody who is not as active.
Fea - not around, I think?

So then it comes down to, whom should I vote? One thing is, I can imagine the WWs now being more among the less talkative. Other thing is, that could be like voting randomly for one among several people, which I really dislike. I think this far I haven't ever voted randomly. So... yes, I will probably vote somebody of the quieter part, but who is at least a bit unsettling, or something. That could be for example Mith, though... bah. Well, okay, there will probably be thousands of other votes anyway. *scratches head* The biggest problem is anyway that we are not going to know... but what can we do. Patience, we must learn!

EDIT: x-ed with Mith, phantom, Nog and Agan

[A Little Green]

Hello bunnies. I'm here at last, though won't be for long, I need to be off to bed. A few comments.

Originally Posted by Lommy

You're probably going to kill me for this, but I really do want to lynch the phantom. Both for making fun of me (as if I'd ever protect anyone with such a small head and long sleeves!) and because he's never been lynched on Day1 before. I say it'd be a nice idea to have a shot at him joining our little pack of fenrises. I could also lynch Lottie just for being a tp fangirl, but I guess that's just how she is...

Originally Posted by Lomz

And guess what my "twitter impression" is? I says you're a cobbler trying to send messages to wolves - "steering" sounds duspiciously close to "seering".

Okay I know this might seem paranoid with seeing cobblers everywhere, but there's three of them out there so I'm kind of freaked out with the idea of how many people are trying to mess up with our heads. I'm sure they will come up with some rather ingenious startegies (given their endless lifespan and ability to remain unidentified) and that does not make me happy at all. So, we should really watch out for them too. This is not deny the obvious - wolves should be our preference.

To tell you the truth, Lommy is creeping me out at the moment. Wanting to kill phantom and Lottie strikes me as awfully easy - also partly because I'm quite fine with both of them right now. Also, her idea of a Bobbler is pretty far-fetched, but I don't know if it's meant as fully serious or not. And regardless of the very last sentence, the paragraph about being paranoid with all the cobblers looks - well - cobblerish to me.

Originally Posted by Aganz

phantom. About the only reason I'm happy about not being a wolf (ie. I don't have to think of what to do with him).

Erm? What exactly are you talking about?

I'm not sure I approve of Nog and phantom advising the Gifted - or the said two (and Ang) also giving advice to the wolves..

Originally Posted by Agan

They have no way of knowing who's good or bad, except via a seer dream, but the longer it takes for the seer to die, the better. Until then, the dead don't know if they're talking with an ordo or a cobbler and can't trust each other with good reason. Therefore I see little risk of a dangerous dead union.

Wait.. The perspective of that last sentence is strange, considering that the topic I believe was innocents uniting in Mandos.

Originally Posted by Nog

A wolf(g)ang

I'm willing to give Nog a pass for this one.


EDIT: x-ed with Agan and Legs

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

So the remaining lover should probably consider revealing only if the ranger is still alive.

I'm afraid the loads of different revelations will be one of our major headaches in this game. Remember, it may be we learn nothing from lynching or saving someone who reveal, whatever that person reveals.

Which actually brings me to a point of actually suggesting quite openly something to everyone as howe to play.

Innocents: do not make false revelations!

Sometimes innocents can make false revelations to try to protect someone they think is a gifted - or to some other ends - but in this game that would be foolish. If we could count on no innocents making a false-reveal we could at least narrow down the possibilities with all the influxing revelations that those doing it are either gifteds (and the ones they say they are), cobblers or wolves.


EDIT: X'd with Leg & Green

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

in this game the seer should die rather early than late (before the lovers or the ranger), but hopefully not like toDay.

I disagree. The seer is more powerful in Mandos (she can check out those whose alignment isn't known yet, or non-wolves suspected of cobblery) but as long as she stays here and dreams of the living, it's more even.

A good plan indeed! Especially with the illogical hunter.

And then? Maybe it's just me, but I thought we were going to lynch a known baddie, not wait for the hunter to die.

But this is a very good one everyone should at least think about: So if and when the goodies take control of Mandos, that indeed is a way to send a message of a known innocent - and the ranger can play nice "cat and mouse" with the wolves if they think they can pick the known innocent out during the Night.

I think that's pretty much impossible. The village has no way of telling when the dead start sending actual messages (as opposed to "gut feeling says X is innocent!").

That post makes me think a lot worse of Nog.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Leg

Legate - that's me
Lommy - that's her.

Trying to earn cuteness points, or what?

Hmm. I seriously need some sleep soon, I'll vote in a while. My vote will go either for a submarine (though obviously not someone who hasn't been around) or Lommy, who I feel the worst about at the moment. I'm feeling more or less okay with Agan (gasp! I wonder how long it will take for me to change my mind on this one), Lottie (I didn't catch anything too cobblerish in her posts, looked more like overdone regular banter to me), and Phantom. Of the rest - most of them are making my head hurt. Sally is slightly fishy but I think I always call her that. Legate is wishy-washy but I know I always call him that.

[Mithalwen]

Not under the radar more like a duck doing a lot of work under the surface. Doing a very whizzy spreadsheet. That confirms my earlier stated mistrust of lists...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, now Mith actually starts talking, so... I wonder. Anyway, I should go to sleep soon - out of the quieter ones, apart from Mith I might possibly go for Nessa, but not sure...

Originally Posted by A Little Green

her idea of a Bobbler

Cuute!!!

Originally Posted by LG

I'm not sure I approve of Nog and phantom advising the Gifted - or the said two (and Ang) also giving advice to the wolves..

Indeed, not sure if I approve of that either... but well, nothing more than that for now and I am simply looking forward to reading more from them in the future that will determine better decipher their intentions...

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Innocents: do not make false revelations!

Sometimes innocents can make false revelations to try to protect someone they think is a gifted - or to some other ends - but in this game that would be foolish. If we could count on no innocents making a false-reveal we could at least narrow down the possibilities with all the influxing revelations that those doing it are either gifteds (and the ones they say they are), cobblers or wolves.

Well, I second the fact that we have enough of confusion possible, but if we look at it purely rationally, apart from what you say, the situation you prefer works also so that people can determine that if somebody is not claiming to be a Gifted, then they are either Ordos, Cobblers or Wolves. Basically it only rules out one possible mistake, and it is, in fact, the most beneficial for the Wolves. This way, the WWs don't have to fear false reveals or such, and it is probably the last piece of puzzle they need (okay, they also need the Cobblers, but it is one more piece of puzzle). But if you make it a rule, then you basically clarify it for the Wolves by drawing a line: here are the Gifteds (and Cobblers) and here are the normal people (and Cobblers). No, I think it should not be a "rule" - but people should simply act reasonably.

Anyway, going to vote and sleep.

EDIT: x-ed with Agan, Greenie and Mith

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

She had once called me "a hog on laughing gas" (when I was innocent), so I think it's not unfair if I call her in return "running like a headless chicken", because that's exactly what it seems like.

:------D
You have no idea how hard I laughed at that.

I like Legate.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

And regardless of the very last sentence, the paragraph about being paranoid with all the cobblers looks - well - cobblerish to me.

I'm inclined to agree. It looked like she was over-emphasizing it.

Erm? What exactly are you talking about?

As an innocent I can just ignore him and wait for the wolves or the rest of the village to take care of him. As a wolf, I wouldn't have such a privilege.

I don't know what to think of Greenie. On one hand, she's being her usual (nit-picky) self towards me. On the other hand, there are things I disagree with her on (namely Lottie and sally).

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Agan

I think that's pretty much impossible. The village has no way of telling when the dead start sending actual messages

I'm not entirely certain about that. For instance, if you have an inkling of who the Seer might possibly be and that person dies, you should go ahead and point out your theory (especially if you can discover some sort of coded message or whatnot, I'm not the only person who does that sort of thing, am I?) and then treat future Dead-votes as a vindication of someone, assuming that the Seer is able to properly convince the Dead upon arrival.

Not to mention that a Seer could very well reveal outright, in which case we'd know all of his dreams EXCEPT the one he has the night he is killed, which could be passed back up to the Living via the proposed method (whoever receives the Dead-bonus the next day was the person the Seer dreamed as he died, UNLESS the Dead repeat a bonus for someone in which case the Seer found a Wolf his final night). In fact the Seer could even announce his intended dream before each night in case he is killed, yes? And if the following day the Dead do NOT give that person an extra vote, we know that individual is guilty.

Surely the plan is at least a bit useful in that situation, yes?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Mänwe

Oh shush dearest, all is always forgiven, now come back to the bedroll.

Excuse me?!

Sorry, still reading, but that caught my eye and now I'm going to have to challenge Manwe to a duel.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Agan

I don't know what to think of Greenie. On one hand, she's being her usual (nit-picky) self towards me.

Hey! You of all people don't get to call me nit-picky! You were unclear, I asked a few questions. Clearer now, thanks.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hm, Agan is actually right... the thoughts she cites of Nog are most peculiar... although he is known for sometimes coming up with schemes overcombined up to the point of being Wolf-y... but yea, given all that... I am not going to vote him now, but watching for the time being...

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Trying to earn cuteness points, or what?

Same goes for you - see above

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Not under the radar more like a duck doing a lot of work under the surface. Doing a very whizzy spreadsheet. That confirms my earlier stated mistrust of lists...

Point taken.

Well... okay, even though there is not so much about it,

++Nessa

Of all the submarines, except for Mith (who now started posting), the one whose post was giving odd vibes to me.

I am pretty sure now some good posting starts, but I really have to go to sleep. So, vote well... and hope that we don't lynch a Seer or something.

EDIT: x-ed with Agan (you're welcome! - they say laughter prolongs life, so maybe they won't see you in Mandos still for a while), phantom, Shasta (yes, I was sure the real fun will begin just now, but alas, I really have to sleep) and LG. Good night!

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

And then? Maybe it's just me, but I thought we were going to lynch a known baddie, not wait for the hunter to die.

Hmm... you're right, in case there is only one baddie the one coming back from Mandos can tell us of. But the possibility that we lose our seer and our ranger/lovers on the first Days so that there would be only one baddie-role to tell of sounds too depressing to focus on... so I was actually thinking about a situation nearer the endgame and more chances. So I totally overlooked that scenario. Anyway, probably not even a cobbler would dare to suggest that "let's lynch the hunter to let her/him take down the known wolf" as a way of a witty fooling of the villagers...

I think that's pretty much impossible. The village has no way of telling when the dead start sending actual messages (as opposed to "gut feeling says X is innocent!").

That is true - and I'm not suggesting that the living should just buy whatever comes from Mandos early on. I think I said something along the lines that "everyone should at least think about". Surely we can't trust the first extra vote sent from Mandos, or probably the second or third... but as time goes by the probability of the goodies running the Mandos increases (and people here are also better equipped to make sense of things). And once we get some decent information from Mandos then the extra-votes given start to be more or less reliable info indeed.


EDIT: X'd with what... a host of posts!

[A Little Green]

Well past bed-time for me. I'm going to go with

++ Lommy

since she's the best lead I have. Usually I never suspect her and she's never evil. This time, on the other hand, she seems quite off to me. Nervous, playing easily, and over-emphasizing stuff (the cobbler paranoia, for example).

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, now Mith actually starts talking, so... I wonder. Anyway, I should go to sleep soon - out of the quieter ones, apart from Mith I might possibly go for Nessa, but not sure...

Wonder what? That I would somehow anticipate that you would find me suspicious and "start talking" and hour or so before you would claim that I was being quiet? Ludicrous. I have been around because I now have a computer and no job as opposed to a job and no computer. There has just been more going on later as a quick glance at distribition of posts over time would show. This says a lot more about you than me.

[Nessa Telrunya]

I'm positively stumped about who to vote. Everyone seems so ambiguous!

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Alright, after a quick read, the two I find most off are...

Phantom (surprise surprise) and Nogrod. Both seem, to me, to be trying to tell the wolves/cobblers what to do - in Phantom's case, it looks more like a Cobbler talking to the wolves and trusting to his reputation to not get him lynched.

That's what I've got. I'll do a more in-depth readthrough now.

[elronds_daughter]

Hrmmmphh. Seems I've missed a lot so far toDay, though none of it terribly conclusive. Lots of lengthy posts, though...

(As an aside, I probably should have informed everyone that when Days fall on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, I won't be around at all until a few hours from DL...methinks I am trying to cram too much into my last semester of school...)

Anyhow. Most unhappy with not having a very good read on anybody yet.

Legate, Nog, and Agan are of course posting their usual tomes. Lommy seems a little more...confused...than usual. (Though who am I to talk about "usual", this being only my third game ever...) phantom is on my good side at the moment. Despite the incessant chatter (joke), he seems to be thinking things through in a more, erm, down-to-earth fashion than other tome-writers (sorry, Legate and Co.).

Right. Well. Those are my limited observations for the moment. I'll be back in a while to vote. This is going to be a very interesting game....

EDIT: x'ed with Shasta (how did I forget about him???) and Nessa.

[Aganzir]

I approve of Nog and phantom advising the gifteds - at least in the sense that it's typical of them. Yeah the gifteds are usually capable of thinking things through themselves, but saying something just to be on the safe side shouldn't hurt anyone.

At the moment some people seem to be (considering) voting for a quiet player. Is that a good idea? I'd actually rather leave the quieter players alive this time... The more they post, the more trails we have.

Originally Posted by the phantom

if you have an inkling of who the Seer might possibly be and that person dies, you should go ahead and point out your theory (especially if you can discover some sort of coded message or whatnot, I'm not the only person who does that sort of thing, am I?) and then treat future Dead-votes as a vindication of someone, assuming that the Seer is able to properly convince the Dead upon arrival.

That sounds reasonable, I guess (and hehe no you aren't )... But even a few baddies can screw up the voting in Mandos, so we really have no way of being sure. That's the problem with just about every plan. We can of course risk it and agree on a plan of sorts, especially if the lovers and/or Glorfindel is still alive, but I'm skeptical.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Excuse me?!

Sorry, still reading, but that caught my eye and now I'm going to have to challenge Manwe to a duel.

I was looking forward to seeing your reaction.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Hey! You of all people don't get to call me nit-picky!

Yes I do. You always find me unclear and ask for a clarification.

[the phantom]

Okay, so, I believe I've heard multiple people talk about baddies messing things up in Dead-Thread. Is it a good idea then to avoid lynching suspected Cobblers? Because really Cobblers are the only Baddies that can do damage over time in Dead-Thread, because identities of Wolves can be checked by the dead. If we do our best to keep Cobblers alive, Goodies will own Dead-Land with total authority.

If the Wolves want to screw things up in Dead-Land, make them flush a kill on a Cobbler.

The obvious drawback is if we adopt this plan and all three Cobblers act Cobblerish and stay alive and, IF we fail to lynch Wolves early on, the Baddies can clinch victory a couple days before they normally could. But really that would assume that every little thing went wrong, yes?

So.... long live the Cobblers?

[Nogrod]

I don't want to bring in any old discussions and debates, but I must say Mith looks more like an innocent, because of her response to Legate.

A short list of my feelings before the voting (short on explanations as I don't have time to write any longer analysis).

Innocent:
Aganzir - Good posting, innocent vibes, feels like she's trying to find the answers that are for the benefit of the village.

Innocentish:
the phantom - Generally makes good points a wolf might not wish to make, it's just that a few of them do not let me pick him into category above.
Anguirel - Seems getting the idea of our good and makes posts a wolf-Ang probably wouldn't.
Mith - For her comment on Legate (and for that familiar annoyance against anything I say... if she were a wolf she would be nicer to me ).

Could go either way:
Legate - Seems too happy to jump on some things I do disagree, but on the other hand hasn't said or done anything really suspicious.
Lommy - Basically seems to have the hang of it but has the air of avoiding things or, well, what some others have said, over-stating things. Smething says I should not trust her but on the other hand I find nothing clear-cut wrong.
Nerwen - Like someone said before: both clearly up to the situation but still mainly just bantering (was online only relatively early on the Day so that might be understandable).

Slightly worried:
Boro - the way he jumps on someone (yes, me) trying to turn the discussion on a more fruitful ground by saying it's "spinning things for my purposes" (so you should read they are bad) and after being questioned about that by some others, changing his point into me being a pessimist (which wasn't the point of my message) and thus suspicious? Odd, from him.


Of others I have not much to say. But will probably vote for one of them others.

Everyone from the classes I've done here will probably be readable in a way or another.

In a few minutes something. Then vote. Then to bed.


EDIT: X'd from Mith onwards.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Agan

I approve of Nog and phantom advising the gifteds - at least in the sense that it's typical of them.

Heh heh, yes, I sort of like to determine early on in my mind and in the minds of everyone else the way the game should be played and then try and play based upon the assumption that people are playing "correctly". Nothing puts me off my game quicker than a free for all. Ordos- do this. Gifteds- do this. Baddies- do this. Now play. Not that I'm foolish enough to assume that every little thing will go my way, but I do at least like to see the roles and strategies discussed to the point that there seems to be a good amount of agreement on enough things that I am able to have a foundation upon which I can build my guesswork.

[Mithalwen]

As for the quiet players... there is often a reluctance to lynch the quiet players in the first instance they often get the benefit of the doubt which a wolf might take advantage of. A gifted player might not to want to draw attention to themselves either but they of course wouldn't want to be so inconspicuous that they made themselves a night target for the wolves (a death that would provide no clues to the village). Of course the fact that death isn't quite the end changes the dynamic.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Heh heh, yes, I sort of like to determine early on in my mind and in the minds of everyone else the way the game should be played and then try and play based upon the assumption that people are playing "correctly". Nothing puts me off my game quicker than a free for all. Ordos- do this. Gifteds- do this. Baddies- do this. Now play. Not that I'm foolish enough to assume that every little thing will go my way, but I do at least like to see the roles and strategies discussed to the point that there seems to be a good amount of agreement on enough things that I am able to have a foundation upon which I can build my guesswork.

I seem to recalling you mentioning multiple times in different situations that people should take care not to bring ideas to the baddies' attention... and now you're doing precisely that. I call shenanigans.

[the phantom]

Shasta- that only applies to difficult to spot strategies, or ploys that cease to function once voiced. Plans that require the adoption of the village (like my Seer dream pass-along) must be voiced to serve any purpose.

You'll recall that in the past I have quite openly declared certain ploys, and pointed out that doing so would actually make them more effective (for instance, when I was attempting to bait the Wolves into killing me, and went so far as to say so).

(EDIT: Usually when I've been irritated in the past with people talking about strategies, it's specifically because I'm doing something that won't work with too much attention and people are pointing to it for no clear reason.)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

When in the other game where roles weren't revealed at death the non-wolves faired very well and got it down to one wolf (who I felt should have been mod-fired for not posting or voting for 3 straight days) But point being, the wolves had a very tough time in the only other game (that I'm aware of) where the roles weren't revealed until it was game over.

My 'Blind Luck' game (from long, long ago) didn't reveal roles, which turned out to be a good thing because I was able to keep the fun going long after the village massacred my wolf team in the first two Days. The point of the game was to see who would be the last person standing, not so much the last team standing, and revealing roles would have messed that up entirely. But anyway, the point is that I didn't reveal roles and the village still successfully took out my wolves one after the other.

So though it might be a little frustrating to us as a village to be playing blind, it doesn't mean we're doing badly, it just means we can't rely on fallacies like, "He voted for her, and she was a [role], so they must be-" and will have to rely more on intuition.

Originally Posted by Ang

Might we want to engineer a double-lynching so that the Dead can start helping us with their deliberations earlier?

I can't decide if that's brilliant or ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Agan

WHERE?
Fea

Leijonien kanssa. Also, stuck in a city waiting for my windshield to be replaced. But I'm home now.

Originally Posted by el fantom

The idea that I won't be out of the game at all even after death and such- Tell me, is anyone else struggling greatly with how to react? I feel extremely.... not pressured. Almost detached even.

Honestly, I signed up because I knew that no matter what my role was, dying wouldn't put a damper on my participation. If I was bad and a seer nabbed me (as always happens when I'm bad), it's not the end of the world because I can still muck up the works on the Dead Thread. Since I'm good, even if I die casually, I'll probably have more fun and be more useful dead anyway.

So yeah, I don't know if I should go all Nilp on y'all and find out what all the Dead Thread's good for, or if I should actually try to stay alive.

Originally Posted by phanty

we all cast votes in the open to give an extra vote as well as voting to discover a roll, and the roll is made public on the thread?

And then, we butter it, and break it into little pieces to show that we don't intend to hurt each other, and we eat it with great ceremony, once we know what it is...

Originally Posted by Nog

Innocents: do not make false revelations!

I can't believe that my first post agrees with Noggin... As a good guy I tend to consider the merits of a false reveal. I once successfully drew the attention off of the actual seer for an entire game (I was the hunter). But in this scenario, where roles aren't actually revealed, a false revelation isn't irrelevant so much as harmful. If the good guys send good guys into the Dead Thread thinking they're the wrong role, it serves no good purpose.

Originally Posted by phantom

So.... long live the Cobblers?

Problem. The wolves could just act cobbler-ish.

Okay. I'm now caught up, and have addressed the main points I found to be of interest.

I should be around until deadline now, I think.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin to tp

I seem to recalling you mentioning multiple times in different situations that people should take care not to bring ideas to the baddies' attention... and now you're doing precisely that. I call shenanigans.

What phantom said. There are different ways of talking about any plans or ways of action. Some actually cancel a bad possibility, some may lure the baddies to adopt it to their own demise, some possibilities the goodies should be generally aware of to their own good...

So should I call your call here shenanigans - or something else?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

What phantom said. There are different ways of talking about any plans or ways of action. Some actually cancel a bad possibility, some may lure the baddies to adopt it to their own demise, some possibilities the goodies should be generally aware of to their own good...

So should I call your call here shenanigans - or something else?

The fact that you defend phantom so stoutly here, combined with that you were already one I was suspicious of (for much the same reason)... given the game setup, I wouldn't put it past baddies to feel safer about linking themselves.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I have to head off to rehearsal and won't be back before deadline - it's likely to run late.

++Nogrod

I thought about voting Phantom, but his defense seemed reasonable enough - whereas Nogrod just seemed to latch on and say "Yeah, what he said!"

[the phantom]

Okay, so, the approach-

Would everyone agree that our chances of victory are extremely high if we simply-
1) Own the Dead-Thread.
2) Keep Lovers & Glorfy alive early on.

If so, then everything we do should be based upon aiding one or both of those points.

Originally Posted by Fea

So yeah, I don't know if I should go all Nilp on y'all and find out what all the Dead Thread's good for, or if I should actually try to stay alive.

Ha ha, I actually thought of Nilp earlier, and how this situation was perfect for him to claim the right to blaze the trail into the Dead-Thread.

Oh, and I am going to blame that earlier error on the fact that I was actually eating a roll at the time. Too funny.

[Nogrod]

Shasta - first overabundant banter, then being totally wrong... he's a clever man so he can't be just erring here?
Glirdan - only a few early banters...
A Little Green - not too much participation but has posted on substance unlike some others on this list.
elronds_daughter - one post, puzzlingly non-commitant looking at the fact that she actually said something.
Mänwe - one post, one sentence, saying nothing.
Loslote - overdoing the banter...
Nessa - Not so bad Mith let's us understand, if she meant that the wolves don't know whether they killed a gifted, an ordo or a cobbler, but quite minimal contributions to say it minimalistically.
Sally - posted when there was actually discussion going on but only bantered (except suspecting Lottie for bantering with Shasta - why not the other way around?).
Fea one post now, neutralish.

No posts so far, no vote from me on D1
Blind Guardian
Wilwa


In a game where we need to read everything from what others say without a chance to check afterwards for sure, I do think lynching the quieter ones - those not giving up anything - is a better choice. Later on when we have some real feelings / arguments of those who meddle with the game a lot more, or have a chance there will be some info coming from Mandos, then we should start lynching the more in the middle of the things -players.


So my vote is going to someone on the list above.

A cigarette to think about it and then to sleep.


EDIT X'd with a few... heh seemingly also Shasta's vote...

[Glirdan]

I'm back everyone, I've been at work all day and then sleeping so you know, not a lot of time to do....well...anything really. Am in the middle of reading everything to date and just want to throw a few things out.

Ang with all his talk of double lynching has me worried. Too bold to be a wolf, but still subtle enough to be a Cobbler. The wording of his second point in post 58 (same post as his double lynch idea) has me worried

Originally Posted by Ang

The wolves are in a bit of a bind here

Am I the only one that is seeming to understand this as sympathy towards the Wolves??

Originally Posted by Lommy

Glirdan - one banter line this far if I'm correct, nothing else. Kind of fishy, I think, but maybe I'll give him the benefit of time zones for now.

Thank you as that is actually precisely the case. When you have a DL that is your bed time and then you sleep for eight hours only to wake up and go to work for six where you have no computer access, your posting becomes limited. Yay for working for Wal-Mart....not

I will not lie though, I don't see people's "Boro's a cobbler" theory at all....However, I'm not really buying his schpeal on Nog being a Cobbler too.

Okay, back to reading the rest (I'm half way through page 2 right now) and will be back to post again.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Fea

Problem. The wolves could just act cobbler-ish.

Yes, well, I sort of wondered if it would be worth it to let them go ahead and do it, and if part way through the game we appear to have six Cobblers in the Living thread we just off them all.

But of course a Gifted could use that as cover too, naturally. In the end it would depend upon the Seer nabbing one of the Wolves and using affiliations and such from the known Wolf to point to the others (particularly if they are Cobbler-acting), seeing as Cobbler-Wolf links are going to be rather difficult to forge (or at least we hope so).

Meh... but that's a lot of supposing and might-happen nonsense... Perhaps there is no correct answer on the Cobblers (dead or alive)? Just sit back and hope that they are Night-killed rather than lynched, and do whatever possible to contribute to that.

[the phantom]

Voting-

Lommy ++ Manwe
Legate ++ Nessa
Green ++ Lommy
Shasta ++ Nog