Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Agan

I approve of Nog and phantom advising the gifteds - at least in the sense that it's typical of them.

Heh heh, yes, I sort of like to determine early on in my mind and in the minds of everyone else the way the game should be played and then try and play based upon the assumption that people are playing "correctly". Nothing puts me off my game quicker than a free for all. Ordos- do this. Gifteds- do this. Baddies- do this. Now play. Not that I'm foolish enough to assume that every little thing will go my way, but I do at least like to see the roles and strategies discussed to the point that there seems to be a good amount of agreement on enough things that I am able to have a foundation upon which I can build my guesswork.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Heh heh, yes, I sort of like to determine early on in my mind and in the minds of everyone else the way the game should be played and then try and play based upon the assumption that people are playing "correctly". Nothing puts me off my game quicker than a free for all. Ordos- do this. Gifteds- do this. Baddies- do this. Now play. Not that I'm foolish enough to assume that every little thing will go my way, but I do at least like to see the roles and strategies discussed to the point that there seems to be a good amount of agreement on enough things that I am able to have a foundation upon which I can build my guesswork.

I seem to recalling you mentioning multiple times in different situations that people should take care not to bring ideas to the baddies' attention... and now you're doing precisely that. I call shenanigans.

[the phantom]

Shasta- that only applies to difficult to spot strategies, or ploys that cease to function once voiced. Plans that require the adoption of the village (like my Seer dream pass-along) must be voiced to serve any purpose.

You'll recall that in the past I have quite openly declared certain ploys, and pointed out that doing so would actually make them more effective (for instance, when I was attempting to bait the Wolves into killing me, and went so far as to say so).

(EDIT: Usually when I've been irritated in the past with people talking about strategies, it's specifically because I'm doing something that won't work with too much attention and people are pointing to it for no clear reason.)

[the phantom]

Okay, so, the approach-

Would everyone agree that our chances of victory are extremely high if we simply-
1) Own the Dead-Thread.
2) Keep Lovers & Glorfy alive early on.

If so, then everything we do should be based upon aiding one or both of those points.

Originally Posted by Fea

So yeah, I don't know if I should go all Nilp on y'all and find out what all the Dead Thread's good for, or if I should actually try to stay alive.

Ha ha, I actually thought of Nilp earlier, and how this situation was perfect for him to claim the right to blaze the trail into the Dead-Thread.

Oh, and I am going to blame that earlier error on the fact that I was actually eating a roll at the time. Too funny.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Fea

Problem. The wolves could just act cobbler-ish.

Yes, well, I sort of wondered if it would be worth it to let them go ahead and do it, and if part way through the game we appear to have six Cobblers in the Living thread we just off them all.

But of course a Gifted could use that as cover too, naturally. In the end it would depend upon the Seer nabbing one of the Wolves and using affiliations and such from the known Wolf to point to the others (particularly if they are Cobbler-acting), seeing as Cobbler-Wolf links are going to be rather difficult to forge (or at least we hope so).

Meh... but that's a lot of supposing and might-happen nonsense... Perhaps there is no correct answer on the Cobblers (dead or alive)? Just sit back and hope that they are Night-killed rather than lynched, and do whatever possible to contribute to that.

[the phantom]

Voting-

Lommy ++ Manwe
Legate ++ Nessa
Green ++ Lommy
Shasta ++ Nog

[Nogrod]

Good to see Glirdan back again. Not voting him now.

From the last list of mine I could vote

for pure annoyance of not playing:
Mänwe

for evading any commitment to any view:
Sally
Elron

for the above + overdoing the banter:
Lottie

But the problem is they are more or less all the "usual suspects" and as such they are shots in the dark.

I'd like to vote for Shasta as he gives me bad vibes right now, but I'd hate to vote from grounds that are at least in part arising from feeling of receiving an evil intended vote.

[Nogrod]

Okay.

++ Shasta

He didn't for a moment consider what I (and tp) were saying, but decided that it was a way to stage a suspicion: two people having similar opinions and wishing people to listen to them. Also I think he very cleverly decided to vote me because I wouldn't be here to talk back near the DL unlike tp.

What's more, I'm speaking for the good of the village in mind - and everyone reading back what I've said and thinking about it sees it is true. But if Shasta is a wolf, he knows I'm speaking against their interest. And if tp is an innocent too (a view I'm slightly leaning over right now even if I can't be totally positive about it), then any trust forming between the innocents would be bad for the wolves. So those people should be done away with asap.


EDIT: X'd with tp & Agan & Ang & Fea...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Meh... but that's a lot of supposing and might-happen nonsense... Perhaps there is no correct answer on the Cobblers (dead or alive)? Just sit back and hope that they are Night-killed rather than lynched, and do whatever possible to contribute to that.

Exactly.

So basically, this plan is bunk. I'm tempted to go with you on the seer-death-with-a-plan idea. The biggest problem is, here's how I would address it as a wolf:

Day time WolFea: I'm the seer!
Night time WolFea: Hey other wolves, if you Night kill me, the village won't find out I'm not actually the Seer, because they won't be told my role!

Dead Threaders vote for people WolFea tells them to.

At some point the real seer counter-reveals but has absolutely no way to prove themselves.

I mean, there's no good reason for the good guys to believe anybody who says they're the seer, so setting up a plan where we trust somebody who says they're the seer? Is full of danger.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Green

the paragraph about being paranoid with all the cobblers looks - well - cobblerish to me

I noticed this section during a quick skim, but in fact I came away from it thinking non-Cobbler, as she seemed to praise the Cobblers a bit much. If you read the way she says it, doesn't it make you ask who would set a standard like that for themselves?

What it made me wonder- is she possibly a Wolf and wishing for us to think too much about Cobblers, particularly if she planned at any point to gain innocence by throwing a suspected Cobbler under the bus, knowing full and well that the Cobbler would serve her purposes just as well in the Dead-Thread, in which case her high opinion of what the Cobblers are capable of could be read as, "You guys better be coming up some good stuff to help us!!" At least that's the gut-reaction reading I took from her post.

So, while my reasoning is entirely different, I am at this point okay with lynching Lommy today. In fact the idea enters my mind of Greenie wolf-on-wolf voting Lommy today under the premise "She's a Cobbler!" and if it's proven that Lommy is in fact guilty, but of Wolvery instead, Greenie may look doubly good (willing to lynch baddie but wrong about Wolvery, since surely a Wolf would have the sense to accuse a fellow Wolf based upon Wolvery to buy herself some credit, if you follow me).

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

some people seem to think Thinlomien is more than usualy, almost suspiciously, incompetent

Ahahaha!

(What did we learn from this? Say something nasty about Lommy and Agan laughs.)

Okie dokie going now.

[Aganzir]

Sorry about being quiet, I've been IMing with a beautiful lady I'm possibly going to paint.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Okay, so, I believe I've heard multiple people talk about baddies messing things up in Dead-Thread. Is it a good idea then to avoid lynching suspected Cobblers? Because really Cobblers are the only Baddies that can do damage over time in Dead-Thread, because identities of Wolves can be checked by the dead. If we do our best to keep Cobblers alive, Goodies will own Dead-Land with total authority.

Hmm. That depends on your point of view. The cobblers are going to cause trouble - both here and in Mandos. But it's going to be a serious problem only if they mess up some information delivery plan. So yes to lynching cobblers, no to plans they can easily affect.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

As for the quiet players... there is often a reluctance to lynch the quiet players in the first instance they often get the benefit of the doubt which a wolf might take advantage of.

Not recently - people have been quite happy about lynching players who post little substance, I think. (But I admit I haven't been very active lately.)

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Leijonien kanssa.

That's as good an excuse for not posting as Greenie had.

I can't believe that my first post agrees with Noggin...

Bunny fangs!

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

The fact that you defend phantom so stoutly here, combined with that you were already one I was suspicious of (for much the same reason)... given the game setup, I wouldn't put it past baddies to feel safer about linking themselves.

I agree with Shasta about Nog being suspicious but I don't see anything particularly bad about his defense of phantom. I think they just think alike on certain things regardless of their roles... And phantom looks almost alright now (although the sooner he's dead the happier I am).

Originally Posted by Nogrod

In a game where we need to read everything from what others say without a chance to check afterwards for sure, I do think lynching the quieter ones - those not giving up anything - is a better choice. Later on when we have some real feelings / arguments of those who meddle with the game a lot more, or have a chance there will be some info coming from Mandos, then we should start lynching the more in the middle of the things -players.

No.
The louder players leave more trails. They are also more likely to contribute more in Mandos which is good, especially if they're innocent. I strongly object to deaths that don't reveal us anything (in the sense that you can't find connections even later when we possibly have information from Mandos or the seer). The longer someone lives, the more she posts.
I know Nog likes lynching quiet players. So do I. But in this game I think it's different.

++NOGROD

Bedtime!

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin to tp

I seem to recalling you mentioning multiple times in different situations that people should take care not to bring ideas to the baddies' attention... and now you're doing precisely that. I call shenanigans.

What phantom said. There are different ways of talking about any plans or ways of action. Some actually cancel a bad possibility, some may lure the baddies to adopt it to their own demise, some possibilities the goodies should be generally aware of to their own good...

So should I call your call here shenanigans - or something else?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

What phantom said. There are different ways of talking about any plans or ways of action. Some actually cancel a bad possibility, some may lure the baddies to adopt it to their own demise, some possibilities the goodies should be generally aware of to their own good...

So should I call your call here shenanigans - or something else?

The fact that you defend phantom so stoutly here, combined with that you were already one I was suspicious of (for much the same reason)... given the game setup, I wouldn't put it past baddies to feel safer about linking themselves.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I have to head off to rehearsal and won't be back before deadline - it's likely to run late.

++Nogrod

I thought about voting Phantom, but his defense seemed reasonable enough - whereas Nogrod just seemed to latch on and say "Yeah, what he said!"

[Glirdan]

I'm back everyone, I've been at work all day and then sleeping so you know, not a lot of time to do....well...anything really. Am in the middle of reading everything to date and just want to throw a few things out.

Ang with all his talk of double lynching has me worried. Too bold to be a wolf, but still subtle enough to be a Cobbler. The wording of his second point in post 58 (same post as his double lynch idea) has me worried

Originally Posted by Ang

The wolves are in a bit of a bind here

Am I the only one that is seeming to understand this as sympathy towards the Wolves??

Originally Posted by Lommy

Glirdan - one banter line this far if I'm correct, nothing else. Kind of fishy, I think, but maybe I'll give him the benefit of time zones for now.

Thank you as that is actually precisely the case. When you have a DL that is your bed time and then you sleep for eight hours only to wake up and go to work for six where you have no computer access, your posting becomes limited. Yay for working for Wal-Mart....not

I will not lie though, I don't see people's "Boro's a cobbler" theory at all....However, I'm not really buying his schpeal on Nog being a Cobbler too.

Okay, back to reading the rest (I'm half way through page 2 right now) and will be back to post again.

[Anguirel]

Anyone who is killed by wolves isn't a wolf. But they can be a cobbler (I still think that term is ridiculous - maybe just 'turncoat', traitor, etc? It's basically the newer and less dramatic Cursed Villager, come to think of it). And the spirits in Mandos can't even check them if they are cobblers. So the Dead do have it hard, harder than I initially assumed.

This makes phantom's point about Cobbler survival, and Fea's riposte to it, the most interesting points I've taken in so far. I was utterly convinced by the good intentions of both statements, but the latter one, that wolves can pretend to be cobblers, does trump. Pessimism in ascendant. Ho-hum. Still, I don't want to see either of these theorisers hang yet. Fea's game indeed is quite a formative comparison which I remember with frankly frustrating accuracy.

Someone used the word "dangerous" in an odd way, about innocent and helpful dead, but I've lost track of who (I'd guess Aganzir) and actually I think such semantics can be overplayed

Basically, this version of Tol-in-Gaurhoth makes or breaks the analyst player (as opposed to the "crazed intuition/half-baked arrogance" player, me). The rules are so knottily intense that they still have us thinking about them, not each other. At this stage, the game is overwhelmingly more fascinating than the players.

I notice by the by that some people seem to think Thinlomien is more than usualy, almost suspiciously, incompetent - I don't agree with this at all; this is a totally novel sort of challenge and I feel utterly incompetent myself. It's very hard to judge on 'past form' in this one... (and that's one of my favourite techniques)

I'm a bit suspicious of Nogrod for sticking up for me at one point. Sorry about that. We Feanorians can be dead ungrateful (though I hope yet to be grateful dead).

[Nessa Telrunya]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

satansaloser2005 - ...
So obviously if I haven't formed an opinion, you're up for my vote. My general plan is to Deadify somebody that is active enough that they'll be useful Dead (as opposed to Deadifying somebody that will do nothing of value in the Dead Thread). So don't be surprised if I vote for somebody that seems active and rational: it's not that I want to kill awesome good guys, it's that I want to ascertain that the purpose of the Dead Thread isn't mucked up via us staffing its walls with mutes.

This is some of the best sense I've heard toDay. Not particularly because it's sally she contemplates lynching, but because the concept itself seems pretty good.

But, with that said, my Day 1 vote will probably be random, and based on knee-jerk reaction, in a wonderfully useless fashion.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

We Feanorians can be dead ungrateful (though I hope yet to be grateful dead).

I'd like to be grateful dead too.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Someone used the word "dangerous" in an odd way, about innocent and helpful dead, but I've lost track of who (I'd guess Aganzir) and actually I think such semantics can be overplayed

Lommy, A Little Green, Aganzir (scions of Finnwe) I was just wanting to flag up the fact that I spotted the phrase "dangerous dead union" a while go but decided not to run with it.

However, I've just seen Aganzir's revelation. Weird if true. Why would Shasta have been so unsubtle? No, wait, I can answer my own question. The excitement of being a Gifted gives one a great desire to boast, and makes one liable to deploy the overly confident double-bluff (cf WW II, my disastrous outing as Guardian; sorry if I'm boring you, whippersnappers).

I'm a blossoming youth at the peak of my powers, but I am doing a post-grad degree so I'm spiritually about 90; I won't contest this retirement-home stuff though it makes me feel a bit low (especially coming from Lommy who's be playing nearly as long as me really. Or is it my little hiatus that's winding you people up?)...

Final, frivolous consideration - interest in the Dead Thread is a character thing. Fea's got it too. We're the kind of people who would have been preeetty untrustworthy around the Ring

okay, serious stuff to consider. I'll try and start doing so

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Greenie

Lommy, well then I hope you don't think your sister is an obscure grey box.

Psst. Try highlighting it.

Originally Posted by Ang

I'm a blossoming youth at the peak of my powers, but I am doing a post-grad degree so I'm spiritually about 90; I won't contest this retirement-home stuff though it makes me feel a bit low (especially coming from Lommy who's be playing nearly as long as me really. Or is it my little hiatus that's winding you people up?)...

Maybe it's the hiatus (or you being generally off key, heh heh what a good joke) - you know, the two things I remember about playing ww with you are the game when I first got fenrised thanks to you and another game where you accused me of "playing the second fiddle" to Nogrod's accusations.

Still thinking about the Nog thing. Mostly something like: if the wolves caught something that I didn't and thought Shasta was a lover, it doesn't mean they killed him because he looked like a seer to them. Ergo, Nogrod doesn't look so fishy. Makes more sense?

Having dinner now, but then I should leave you and vote. Haven't had time to think about people too much toDay, I've been more thinking about points than the ones who've been making them. Hmm. Well, I'll think about it.


edit: xed with Fea and Phantom

[Boromir88]

I will likely make my vote for Nog, Glirdan, or Phantom. There's something reeking of evil amongst those three. In the very least I think Glirdan's a cobbler for pointing out Shasta's prior seer behavior yesterday, and following it up with some worry about Nog, but also the possibility he's getting framed. Dunno, just looks like Glirdy has a feeling Nog's a wolf.

Which wouldn't point to anything about Nog, other than someone I suspect is a cobbler thinks he's a wolf. Although I'm more and more not being convinced by Nog and his latest phantom-argument looks more desperatation than an honest disagreement and suspicion against tp.

That group of three, it's been clear enough to me, one of their agendas isn't good, and I would wager more.

Greenie will be elevated from Koala to Swarm of Killer bees if she votes for Nessa. That looks like an attempt to stay out of the main confrontations going on today and make a vote for someone who is either not likely to be lynched or a bandwagon victim if people start getting cold feet about Nog, Phantom or Glirdy. I'm understanding the uncomfortabality about Nog and Mith, because I'm feeling the same way. What I'm not understanding Greenie, is why that's not strong enough to earn your vote, and thus why Nessa? I know you said her vote bothered you yesterday, but today there's been enough shenanigans between Nog, Phantom and Mith that I think is suspicious enough.

Wilwa's threat level decreased from Shark infested waters to Koala. She posted, I disagree with her about Glirdan, but knowing she would have said the same thing I did yesterday makes her look good. And that's not because she agreed, but I can just imagine wilwa having that "what are you silly people talking about" reaction for yesterday.

[Nogrod]

Shasta - first overabundant banter, then being totally wrong... he's a clever man so he can't be just erring here?
Glirdan - only a few early banters...
A Little Green - not too much participation but has posted on substance unlike some others on this list.
elronds_daughter - one post, puzzlingly non-commitant looking at the fact that she actually said something.
Mänwe - one post, one sentence, saying nothing.
Loslote - overdoing the banter...
Nessa - Not so bad Mith let's us understand, if she meant that the wolves don't know whether they killed a gifted, an ordo or a cobbler, but quite minimal contributions to say it minimalistically.
Sally - posted when there was actually discussion going on but only bantered (except suspecting Lottie for bantering with Shasta - why not the other way around?).
Fea one post now, neutralish.

No posts so far, no vote from me on D1
Blind Guardian
Wilwa


In a game where we need to read everything from what others say without a chance to check afterwards for sure, I do think lynching the quieter ones - those not giving up anything - is a better choice. Later on when we have some real feelings / arguments of those who meddle with the game a lot more, or have a chance there will be some info coming from Mandos, then we should start lynching the more in the middle of the things -players.


So my vote is going to someone on the list above.

A cigarette to think about it and then to sleep.


EDIT X'd with a few... heh seemingly also Shasta's vote...