How would you know? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lastande Took · 08-17-2010, 12:34 PM

Oooh, good thread! I don't have much to offer, though, because I know nothing about Elfwine or Old English translations of the Red Book. I've never heard about this before. Is it in the "History of Middle-earth", "Letters", or where?

Based on my (very) limited knowlege, perhaps Tolkien's copy of the Red Book had both Westron and Old English side-by-side, at least for some sections. I like the idea of him dreaming it as mentioned in the beginning of the thread. Seems the Valar are still alive and well. :P

Galin · 08-18-2010, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lastande Took

Oooh, good thread! I don't have much to offer, though, because I know nothing about Elfwine or Old English translations of the Red Book. I've never heard about this before. Is it in the "History of Middle-earth", "Letters", or where?

In The History of Middle-Earth we actually find Old English versions of some of the Annals for example (as written by Elfwine in ancient English), and Quenta Silmarillion at one point had a 'translator's note' which indicated that the histories here given in the English of the day were translated from the version of Elwine of Angelcynn.

Of course that's a very simplified summation of the scenario as it existed at one point (externally speaking), but we are only speculating as to whether or not Tolkien might later imagine that an Old English version of the Red Book existed to help with translation.

After somewhat quickly reading (most of) Appendix F, On Translation, to me it seems to give the impression that JRRT went from Westron to modern English, and one would further wonder why he did not mention any Old English version especially when he raises the matter of the language of the Rohirrim (as he used some Old English in representing the tongue of the Rohirrim).

I don't know if Tolkien himself would necessarily think that the phrasing in Appendix F might be too hard to get around, but I agree that The Notion Club Papers could provide a nice path here in any case.

morwen edhelwen · 08-27-2010, 03:45 AM

bump... hope I didn't kill this...

Findegil · 08-30-2010, 10:26 AM

Were would AElfwine go? And what would he learn there?

If he still came to Eressea it is most probably a kind of a Silmarillion that he brought back and not the story of the War of the Ring.

So what might Tolkien have owned to translate?

Probably he had a complete copy of the Red Book, including the volumes of 'Translaions from Elvish' that Bilbo made in Rivendell in Westron and in some kind of elvish script. In addition he might have had a 'Silmarillion' from AElfwine in Old English. Thus he could translate the later and gain some insight into elvish languages simply by the names and some battle cries and so on perserved by AElfwine. Now seeing the similarty of the story given in Bilbos translations to what he had got from AElfwine the good Professor together with his professional konwledge about languages probably was able to transscibe and translate what he found in the Red Book.

It does'nt seems to me so much harder than egyptian hyroglyphs.

Respectfuly
Findegil

Galin · 08-30-2010, 02:39 PM

If we can speculate concerning an Old English element in Elfwine, I still think it's easier for him to have translated the tale of the War of the Ring and Bilbo's translations into Old English...

... and after this task, now inspired to learn more and actually meet Elves, he sails off into the West -- maybe returning with some of the more purely Elvish-written sources to compare with the largely Mannish and Middle-earthian Elvish accounts of the Elder Days.

Thus Elfwine possibly returns with the legend of the Awakening of the Quendi for example, in which the Sun already exists when the Elves awaken -- though granted that was said to be preserved by the Sindar as well, in any event. Or a more purely Elvish account of the Downfall of Numenor perhaps (in which the world was always round, as the Elves of Aman teach in the Mannish account). Also, maybe more linguistic materials, or more detailed accounts of the doings in Aman that were not remembered in Numenor.

Or something

Although again, I'm not sure there is any indication that Tolkien imagined this as the scenario.

08-17-2010, 12:34 PM	#1
Lastande Took Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2010 Location: The Old Forest of Virginia Posts: 44	Oooh, good thread! I don't have much to offer, though, because I know nothing about Elfwine or Old English translations of the Red Book. I've never heard about this before. Is it in the "History of Middle-earth", "Letters", or where? Based on my (very) limited knowlege, perhaps Tolkien's copy of the Red Book had both Westron and Old English side-by-side, at least for some sections. I like the idea of him dreaming it as mentioned in the beginning of the thread. Seems the Valar are still alive and well. :P __________________ Tom-fool of a Took! Holmesian.net, the official unofficial home for Sherlock Holmes fanatics.

08-27-2010, 03:45 AM	#3
morwen edhelwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 91	bump... hope I didn't kill this...

08-30-2010, 10:26 AM	#4
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	Were would AElfwine go? And what would he learn there? If he still came to Eressea it is most probably a kind of a Silmarillion that he brought back and not the story of the War of the Ring. So what might Tolkien have owned to translate? Probably he had a complete copy of the Red Book, including the volumes of 'Translaions from Elvish' that Bilbo made in Rivendell in Westron and in some kind of elvish script. In addition he might have had a 'Silmarillion' from AElfwine in Old English. Thus he could translate the later and gain some insight into elvish languages simply by the names and some battle cries and so on perserved by AElfwine. Now seeing the similarty of the story given in Bilbos translations to what he had got from AElfwine the good Professor together with his professional konwledge about languages probably was able to transscibe and translate what he found in the Red Book. It does'nt seems to me so much harder than egyptian hyroglyphs. Respectfuly Findegil

08-30-2010, 02:39 PM	#5
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	If we can speculate concerning an Old English element in Elfwine, I still think it's easier for him to have translated the tale of the War of the Ring and Bilbo's translations into Old English... ... and after this task, now inspired to learn more and actually meet Elves, he sails off into the West -- maybe returning with some of the more purely Elvish-written sources to compare with the largely Mannish and Middle-earthian Elvish accounts of the Elder Days. Thus Elfwine possibly returns with the legend of the Awakening of the Quendi for example, in which the Sun already exists when the Elves awaken -- though granted that was said to be preserved by the Sindar as well, in any event. Or a more purely Elvish account of the Downfall of Numenor perhaps (in which the world was always round, as the Elves of Aman teach in the Mannish account). Also, maybe more linguistic materials, or more detailed accounts of the doings in Aman that were not remembered in Numenor. Or something Although again, I'm not sure there is any indication that Tolkien imagined this as the scenario.