How would you know?

[Galin]

Ah, found it. It was from Charles Noad's 'Of the Construction Of The Silmarillion' from Tolkien's Legendarium. Full context is best, as the following is only a very small part of his essay, but it ends...

'(...) Since the Hobbits would seem to occupy the same place that the 'faded' Elves did in the earliest formulations of the mythology, we could understand why Elfwine made his voyage in the first place. He would have known of the Hobbits as they survived in tenth-century Britain, and, learning from them about the Red Book and its contents (the single volume of Bilbo's and Frodo's memoirs), have been inspired by its hints about the histories of the Elves to seek the Straight Road to the West, there to learn the lore of the Elves and recover if for the race of Men.'

Charles Noad

Anyway, yes Elfwine was certainly around after The Lord of the Rings, and Elfwine And Dirhaval has been dated at c. 1958. Still, the Numenorean/Imladris/ Bilbo tradition is later of course. Anyway, I wonder if something like Mr. Noad's scenario above might have yet been possible -- with the further speculation that Elfwine perhaps ultimately provided an Old English version of the Red Book?

But I'm still waiting to fully read Appendix F again before I comment concerning that

[Pitchwife]

That's an intriguing speculation by Mr Noad, and I quite like it - would solve a lot of our problems here. Perhaps Tolkien had access to the Red Book in both the original language and Ælfwine's hypothetical Old English translation?

Originally Posted by Galin

Anyway, yes Elfwine was certainly around after The Lord of the Rings, and Elfwine And Dirhaval has been dated at c. 1958. Still, the Numenorean/Imladris/ Bilbo tradition is later of course.

Is it? I'm not sure when Tolkien came up with the idea of a Mannish/Numenorean tradition, but Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish are mentioned in the LotR Prologue (is that in the Second Edition only? I know I should check...except I'm too lazy at the moment), and 'extracts from Books of Lore translated by Bilbo in Rivendell' in the last chapter of the narrative itself.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

That's an intriguing speculation by Mr Noad, and I quite like it - would solve a lot of our problems here. Perhaps Tolkien had access to the Red Book in both the original language and Ælfwine's hypothetical Old English translation?

Yes I think that's the idea: some copy of the RB and an OE version to help the modern translator (the notion based, at least, on what Mr. Noad wrote above).

Is it? I'm not sure when Tolkien came up with the idea of a Mannish/Numenorean tradition, but Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish are mentioned in the LotR Prologue (is that in the Second Edition only? (...) and 'extracts from Books of Lore translated by Bilbo in Rivendell' in the last chapter of the narrative itself.

Good point, Bilbo was already writing according to the first edition (if I recall correctly the Note on the Shire Records was added to the second edition), so I should say 'Numenorean transmission' compared to Elfwine, even though I ultimately view Bilbo's translations as connected, a part of the former.

Going from memory here: Elfwine is mentioned often enough in the early 1950s phase, after The Lord of the Rings was written but not yet published, and as we see with Elfwine And Dirhaval, even as late as 1958.

I think the Numenorean/Mannish idea generally appears around the later 1950s and 1960s (we might include the Tolkien-published The Adventures of Tom Bombadil references here) -- but curiously there is at least one Numenorean-type reference connected to an abandoned typescript of the Annals of Aman, (or AAm* in Morgoth's Ring) which text Christopher Tolkien is inclined to think belongs to an earlier phase rather than later.

Anyway, the Elfwine references in the early 1950s concern texts relating to the Elder Days, and I'm not sure what Tolkien had in mind at this time, despite the published description in The Lord of the Rings surrounding Bilbo's work.