Can anything good come from Men? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

littlemanpoet · 02-27-2009, 11:16 AM

I think there are two more aspects to "why north".

First, the Celtic and German people groups (throw in Finnish because of Tolkien's preferences) are northern and western. Therefore, in a meta-story sense, he's writing from the perspective of all the mythologies he studied by way of his linguistic/philological pursuits. Thus, the Germanic and Celtic people groups have a bit more going for them. The entire legendarium has as its subject northern Men, Elves, and Dwarves. Since it's about them and from their pov, it makes sense that Tolkien would make them more prone to virtue (as it were).

Second, it's interesting to me how Tolkien's legendarium - myth, really, compares and contrasts to the ancient mythologies, northern and otherwise, with which he was familiar. In point of fact, I don't think there are any myths that have the villainous evil deity in the north (there may be one or many, but I don't recollect them). There is, however, in many of the primary myths with which we are these days familiar - - Mayan, Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek/Roman, etc. - - an interesting correlation to the north, in that the primary deity is understood to be at the north, literally at the north pole, and is associated with the ancient sun god, be it Ra, Saturn, Quetzalchoatl, or whoever. That Tolkien has his northern power be evil is at odds to most of these, but there's one exception: Lucifer in the Hebrew "mythos", written by one Isaiah. The description of Lucifer matches that of Saturn, Ra, etc. in other cultural myths except that Lucifer is evil, like Morgoth.

I realize the second point strays a little bit from the "from Men" bit, but I'm attempting to dig up original causes at a story/myth-writing level.

02-27-2009, 11:16 AM	#14
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	I think there are two more aspects to "why north". First, the Celtic and German people groups (throw in Finnish because of Tolkien's preferences) are northern and western. Therefore, in a meta-story sense, he's writing from the perspective of all the mythologies he studied by way of his linguistic/philological pursuits. Thus, the Germanic and Celtic people groups have a bit more going for them. The entire legendarium has as its subject northern Men, Elves, and Dwarves. Since it's about them and from their pov, it makes sense that Tolkien would make them more prone to virtue (as it were). Second, it's interesting to me how Tolkien's legendarium - myth, really, compares and contrasts to the ancient mythologies, northern and otherwise, with which he was familiar. In point of fact, I don't think there are any myths that have the villainous evil deity in the north (there may be one or many, but I don't recollect them). There is, however, in many of the primary myths with which we are these days familiar - - Mayan, Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek/Roman, etc. - - an interesting correlation to the north, in that the primary deity is understood to be at the north, literally at the north pole, and is associated with the ancient sun god, be it Ra, Saturn, Quetzalchoatl, or whoever. That Tolkien has his northern power be evil is at odds to most of these, but there's one exception: Lucifer in the Hebrew "mythos", written by one Isaiah. The description of Lucifer matches that of Saturn, Ra, etc. in other cultural myths except that Lucifer is evil, like Morgoth. I realize the second point strays a little bit from the "from Men" bit, but I'm attempting to dig up original causes at a story/myth-writing level.