Can anything good come from Men?

[littlemanpoet]

Now I step out on a limb. The people of Haleth and Beor and the other clan whose name I don't recall, were of northern stock. The Eorlings were of northern stock. The Breelanders were of northern stock. The Beornings were of northern stock. The Men of Dale were of northern stock.

The Dunlendings, Haradrim, and Easterlings were .... not of northern stock.

It can safely be argued from the tales spun by Tolkien in regard to each of these people groups, that if you're a northerner and a human, chances are you have a disposition tending toward goodness, and contact with Elves or lack of such contact does not obtain. That is, it doesn't matter if northerners have contact with Elves or not; they'll still most likely not be evil. So this tells me that Tolkien's system has it such that northerners have some special quality that the other people groups lack. What is it, and why does Tolkien single northerners out as somehow more capable of withstanding the onslaught of evil?

Take this one step further. The Numenoreans were descended from a combination of Elves and the northern people groups. Those that settle in Umbar, the furthest south of any, descended into evil. Gondor, in the middle, has a middling history of both good and bad: they withstood Sauron but had the kinslaying and other such evils. The people of Arnor did have some groups that fell to the sway of evil in Cardolan and Rhudaur, so it could be said that these are exceptions to the rule of northerness - but so is the Witch Kingdom of Angmar an exception to the rule of evil being southern; so these can be considered the dual exception that proves the rule.

There you have it: why are southerners prone to evil and northerners likely to be good, Elves or not Elves?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

There you have it: why are southerners prone to evil and northerners likely to be good, Elves or not Elves?

Considering that Angband, Utumno and Carn Dum stood in the North, the theory can hardly be accepted. Dol Guldur was not much to the South either.

The Breelanders were close kin to Dunlendings and to Men of the White Mountains - the people who provided all the Dead of Dunharrow. The Hillmen of Rhudaur who fought for Angmar were likely their kin as well.

I can't see any North-South pattern here.

[littlemanpoet]

I don't think this can be dismissed quite so easily - in terms of Men.

Angband and Utumno were established as the mythical reason for cold. I'm a little vague on Carn Dum, but was that not associated with the Witch King? And Dol Guldur is Sauron's northernmost outpost, and it is in the south end of Rhovanion.

Obviously, when dealing with maps, there will be some fluidity, but the basic pattern holds. Again, why the special status of northern Men in Tolkien's legendarium?

[mark12_30]

Because Beowulf was northern...

Or, maybe it's because, in general, faerie lies to the north, or at least lingers longer there. Dol Amroth no longer hosts elves. Edhellond is deserted. But to the north, are Rivendell, Thranduil's halls, Lorien, The Shire, Evendim (who denies it is enchanted? Just look at the map!) and Mithlond. Elves wander in the woods near the Shire, and roam between Rivendell and The Tower Hills.

And let's not forget Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. It just feels different near the Shire.

[Mnemosyne]

This whole north/south thing is really odd, because the Elves have traditionally associated the North with evil (when you go through the cardinal directions it's supposed to go West, South, East, North because North was the seat of Angband).

About the best correlation I can make is because evil was such an obvious and strong presence, some of the Men (the first ones to move west) reacted to it, and continued to live in the North in opposition. In the south it had a more subtle presence and thus was able to ensnare more Men. Or, those Men who did not react against Morgoth had to move in south, because all the good lands up North were taken by those good-for-naught Elves and Elf-friends.

Maybe that was enough to set up a pattern that generally speaking perpetuated itself over the generations.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Truly, to me it seems so that in the North, there is the "throne of all evil", ever since Angband was there. The outposts come and go, even Mordor is established somewhere simply because it's far away enough from the Elves. Had Mordor not been possible to reoccupy and had the White Council not driven out of Mirkwood, Dol Guldur might have become next in the line of "evil realms". But it was the North, where Varda

Originally Posted by Sil, Chapter 3: Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor

high in the north as a challenge to Melkor she set the crown of seven mighty stars to swing, Valacirca, the Sickle of the Valar and sign of doom.

The North was important, and despite the fact that Melkor was driven away, one can never get rid of the feeling that there is the place where the axis of the world lies (now I am intentionally phrasing it like that, so that you can read it metaphorically).