Can anything good come from Men?

[littlemanpoet]

Okay, it seems that we've more or less exhausted a discussion of the possible exceptions to the general inference that Men tend to be evil unless they have some kind of experience with the Eldar, direct or indirect.

I'm curious: why is contact with the Eldar so crucial?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Okay, it seems that we've more or less exhausted a discussion of the possible exceptions to the general inference that Men tend to be evil unless they have some kind of experience with the Eldar, direct or indirect.

I'm curious: why is contact with the Eldar so crucial?

Well, once again, I would say that it was not the contact with Eldar per se, it was rather the contact with Valar, or rather "with the Light from the West". The Eldar were the best "medium" through which this light might come (meaning, of course, those who have seen the Light, in some way). I think that is told quite obviously at some moments of the Silmarillion.

[Selador]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Okay, it seems that we've more or less exhausted a discussion of the possible exceptions to the general inference that Men tend to be evil unless they have some kind of experience with the Eldar, direct or indirect.

I'm curious: why is contact with the Eldar so crucial?

I think Faith is the key element. The ability of Men to walk a righteous path in Middle-earth seems to be closely related to how much they are able to put their faith in Eru's divine plan. The friends of the Elves are better able to do this, because they become enlightened by the Elves. The High Elves have had direct contact with the Valar and have been taught about the goodness of Eru. But Men may only learn of the Valar indirectly, so naturally they have a harder time accepting the ideas of Faith, Belief, Hope. Notice how the "good" men of Númenor are called "The Faithful" and the King Returned is named "Hope". These are the seminal virtues of "good" men. Despair is always associated with those who go astray. Often this despair comes from the fear of Death.

Yet, remember, the Men of Tolkien's Middle-earth are simply Men. We are the Men of Middle-earth, and we have the same tendencies as the ones we are reading about. I don't think we are naturally evil or disposed toward evil (at least I try to believe that), but all men are faced with choices and have the freedom to choose between good or evil. Those who keep Faith in something greater than themselves, some inherent goodness in the universe, an afterlife, a merciful God - something - these people are more naturally disposed toward "good". Those who despair or turn inward, those who give up hope of any inherent "good" in the world, those who distrust the divine plan - these people are pushed towards selfishness, bitterness, evil. I'm not saying faith in the divine plan is the only path to righteousness, but it does generally help people, and people generally will end up putting their faith in something (or someone) to keep hope alive in them. As Jackson Browne sang: "Everyone I know, everywhere I go, people need some reason to believe."

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Selador

Yet, remember, the Men of Tolkien's Middle-earth are simply Men. We are the Men of Middle-earth, and we have the same tendencies as the ones we are reading about. I don't think we are naturally evil or disposed toward evil (at least I try to believe that)

I'm not sure I agree with that.

Humanity in Tolkien's world, barring instruction from the elves do seem to all fall into evil, or at least be classified as such. The Edain did move westward, not consciously seeking the elves, but trying to escape the influence of Morgoth. Unfortunately, their numbers compared to the population of humanity at large do not seem to have been very large.

In humanity's defense it must be said that they were not allowed to develop in a vacuum but had Morgoth's malign influence on them almost from the moment they awakened.

[littlemanpoet]

Selador, I don't think it's quite as clear cut as that. Consider the words of Aragorn in response to one of the hobbits bemoaning the passing of Gandalf in Moria - "It's hopeless now!" Aragorn says, "Then we shall have to do without hope."

But there's something we're overlooking here, at least in terms of the First Age. The Three Houses of Men that came furthest west: Haleth and the others, tended toward honor, goodness, nobility and all the rest before they ever met an Elf. How does that fit into this theory of ours that meeting the Eldar was so critical?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

But there's something we're overlooking here, at least in terms of the First Age. The Three Houses of Men that came furthest west: Haleth and the others, tended toward honor, goodness, nobility and all the rest before they ever met an Elf. How does that fit into this theory of ours that meeting the Eldar was so critical?

That's what I was getting at. And I still wonder: what was different about the Edain that induced them to seek the West in the beginning, whereas the other races of Men stayed in the East and served Morgoth? They had doubtless been in communication with Silvan Elves before starting the journey, but I don't know that had much overall effect on them.

[Selador]

Gandalf's death was devastating blow, littlemanpoet, but even despite Aragorn's words, I don't think that all Hope truly died with Gandalf. Or, perhaps it can be said that Hope can always be reborn. There are many more passages which show the vital importance of Hope to the quest, but I think those are really tangential to this topic.

You are right, though, it is always dangerous to speak in generalities, and I did not mean to suggest that it was all clear cut. It is not to me, anyway. In general, however, it is apparent that Elves did have a positive effect on Men, and this seems to be attributable to indirect divine influence. Tolkien wrote in a letter to Milt Waldman (Letter #131 from Humphrey Carpenter's book):

But Sauron dominates all the multiplying hordes of Men that have had no contact with the Elves and so indirectly with the true and unfallen Valar and gods.

Similarly, Morgoth's and Sauron's influence did obviously have a corrupting influence on Men, in general, but I do not think this meant that all men were doomed to be evil as a result.

And when it comes to generalizations, if we generalize history, isn't it just inevitable that we view Men as evil? That is, if some men take to evil and so try to dominate other men, history will always involve conflict of man against man, even though many men are trying to be "good". And History will always be warlike, even though many men may be peace-loving and only trying to defend themselves. And isn't that in fact the very way Man's history has unwound?

Kuruharan, what do you think it is in particular that Elves are able to do to change Men's evil ways?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I think the premise of this thread is somewhat flawed.
Men were second in time but, as I understand it,
not in innate goodness or badness. Men and elves
could be viewed, if you will, as variant
"experiments" by Iluvatar. Men's rockier start seems to
be more by the way of less favorable circumstances of their
origins vis-a-vis the elves (far more influenced by Melkor
then the elves beginnings. Such an essential moral equivalency
of men/elves seems implied by Iluvatar's withholding dwarves
from life until after both elves and men.

And in Letters #180

In this mythological world the elves and men are in
their incarnate forms kindred, but in relation of their 'spirits'
to the world represent different 'experiments', each of which
has its own natural trend, and weakness...Mere change
as such is not represented as 'evil': it is the unfolding of the
story and to refuse this is of course against the design of God.
But the Elvish weakness is in these terms naturally to regret the
past...Hence they fell in a measure to Sauron's deceits: they
desired some 'power' over things as they are...to arrest change,
and keep things always fresh and fair.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

But there's something we're overlooking here, at least in terms of the First Age. The Three Houses of Men that came furthest west: Haleth and the others, tended toward honor, goodness, nobility and all the rest before they ever met an Elf. How does that fit into this theory of ours that meeting the Eldar was so critical?

Well, that is one thing to consider, though it just means - I believe - simply that the Men were not utterly wicked by their dispositions. They could strive for something more out of their own, but again, cf. what I said above, the contact with the West was in some way helping and healing.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That's what I was getting at. And I still wonder: what was different about the Edain that induced them to seek the West in the beginning, whereas the other races of Men stayed in the East and served Morgoth? They had doubtless been in communication with Silvan Elves before starting the journey, but I don't know that had much overall effect on them.

This is why I said it was not about Elves, but about the Light. I don't consider Silvan Elves much different from the Men who remained in the East, maybe only save for the fact that they met Oromë anyway, and, well, they were simply Elves (older race remembering the younger world, the people of the Stars, with a different fate). But in general, I don't think the Silvan Elves might have given the Men much in this sense of making them better (in this "moral sense") - they could only teach them to speak etc. (As we know they did.)

Originally Posted by Selador

You are right, though, it is always dangerous to speak in generalities, and I did not mean to suggest that it was all clear cut. It is not to me, anyway. In general, however, it is apparent that Elves did have a positive effect on Men, and this seems to be attributable to indirect divine influence. Tolkien wrote in a letter to Milt Waldman (Letter #131 from Humphrey Carpenter's book):

But Sauron dominates all the multiplying hordes of Men that have had no contact with the Elves and so indirectly with the true and unfallen Valar and gods.

Similarly, Morgoth's and Sauron's influence did obviously have a corrupting influence on Men, in general, but I do not think this meant that all men were doomed to be evil as a result.

However, this I agree with - that is more or less what I said earlier.

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

I think the premise of this thread is somewhat flawed.
Men were second in time but, as I understand it,
not in innate goodness or badness. Men and elves
could be viewed, if you will, as variant
"experiments" by Iluvatar. Men's rockier start seems to
be more by the way of less favorable circumstances of their
origins vis-a-vis the elves (far more influenced by Melkor
then the elves beginnings. Such an essential moral equivalency
of men/elves seems implied by Iluvatar's withholding dwarves
from life until after both elves and men.

And this is also a very good point Definitely.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Okay, it seems that we've more or less exhausted a discussion of the possible exceptions to the general inference that Men tend to be evil unless they have some kind of experience with the Eldar, direct or indirect.

I'm curious: why is contact with the Eldar so crucial?

What about the Drúedain? They don't show evidence of contact with the Eldar, and yet they also don't seem to show any inclination towards evil.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, the Elves fell- or rather, many individual Elves fell. The Noldorin Exiles as a group fell. But that's not the same thing as the Fall of the entire race of Man, predisposed to evil from birth.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

What about the Drúedain? They don't show evidence of contact with the Eldar

Ah, but they do. Says so right on the label: Dru-edain. The Eldar considerd them to be Atani, as many of them constituted an ethnically distinct population among the Folk of Haleth.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, the Elves fell- or rather, many individual Elves fell. The Noldorin Exiles as a group fell. But that's not the same thing as the Fall of the entire race of Man, predisposed to evil from birth.

Hm... I would say the correct formulation would be weak towards evil from start. The fea of Men comes ultimately from Eru, which is good; their essence is good; their predisposition and destiny is from start towards Eru, they are an integral and positive part of his plan for creation. However, they come in contact with something that, by design, they have little defenses against, which is the marring of Arda by Melkor. I am not very impressed by this, since Tolkien said in Myths Transformed that every finite being has an inherent weakness, one way or the other - and that was in direct reference to Manwe no less. If we look at the scale of things, the valar (and elves to a lesser extent) simply have a much higher magnitude of fea, compared to Men, and so their ability to fight inherent corruption is much greater.

[Selador]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, the Elves fell- or rather, many individual Elves fell. The Noldorin Exiles as a group fell. But that's not the same thing as the Fall of the entire race of Man, predisposed to evil from birth.

I have to disagree. I don't see any fundamental difference. Many individual men fell, but many others did not. There were certainly good men, and so I don't think that one can say that the entire race of Men fell. They were universally susceptible to fall, yes. But Elves were also universally susceptible to fall. Otherwise, no individual Elves could have fallen.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Selador

I have to disagree. I don't see any fundamental difference. Many individual men fell, but many others did not. There were certainly good men, and so I don't think that one can say that the entire race of Men fell. They were universally susceptible to fall, yes. But Elves were also universally susceptible to fall. Otherwise, no individual Elves could have fallen.

I think the point being made is that Men were more susceptible to the Fall than elves, not that either race was all one or the other.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Selador

I have to disagree. I don't see any fundamental difference. Many individual men fell, but many others did not. There were certainly good men, and so I don't think that one can say that the entire race of Men fell. They were universally susceptible to fall, yes. But Elves were also universally susceptible to fall. Otherwise, no individual Elves could have fallen.

I think there is a difference of kind, if not degree. The Music of the Ainur might give the sense of it better than I could. There is a strength and a sadness in the third theme. The elves might be better able to maintain an idealized memory of the purity of the beginning, while mankind has its own strengths and its own flaws. Certainly, each race messed it up big time in turn, but the sense I have at the end of LotR is that the Elves would withdraw but that human kind would continue to grow, thrive and fulfill the intent of the Music.

[Findegil]

What we hear about the fall of Men, is scanty evidence to rule on that basis. But at least for the three kindered of the western Men, that in Beleriand became the Houses of Beor, Hador and Haleth and for all the kindered of the Easterlings and Southerners that we see in three ages of Middle-earth, it is clear that their ancestors had been part of that fall of Men in the very begining of the history of menkind. That means they took Melkor to be their creator, identyfied Erus voice with the voide and refused to listen. They hunted down and killed in cruel ways others that repented from that blasphemy, before (in part) they themself repented and became hunted.
Not so sure we might be about Hobbits and Drûg. But at least I can argue that non of these seems to hear the voice any longer, so that most proberbly, their early ancestors had also part in that fall of men.

Now for the Elves things were very diffrent: As a group only one part of one of the branches fell (the Exiled Noldor by leaving Aman and not seek forgiveness for the kinslaying at Aqualonde). Also the sins comitted by the Noldor seem to be less heavy: They never dinied the existence of Eru nor tried to kill every body of their own kind that was not of the same oppion.

But I wouldn't say that it took "an effort of will for Men to be good", or that by the fall men were "predisposed to evil from birth". Even so I agree that the Original Sin had left its mark on men. I would rather say that, men were "particularly susceptible to the temptations of evil". Which is diffrent think, since it needs the temptation and the tempter. (Mark also that I used past tense here. Since Tolkien was a devoted Christian, the healing of Mens Original Sin came with the passion of Christ which for him was part of the future of Middle-Earth, and part of our past.)

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Also the sins comitted by the Noldor seem to be less heavy: They never dinied the existence of Eru nor tried to kill every body of their own kind that was not of the same oppion.

The elves were also more sheltered and taught by the Valar (at least the groups that made the journey).

That in itself may be a big part of my original question...foundationally it wasn't so much elvishness that was sought as the light from the teachings of the Valar.

Another point to be considered is that if orcs did come from elves then perhaps elves are capable of even greater falls than humanity.

(Yes, I know, Tolkien moved away from the idea...let me have my fun. )