Can anything good come from Men?

[Kuruharan]

Can anything good come from anyone else?
Nothing much happened with the elves that refused the summons, and the more the elves followed the Valar, the greater they became. For example, the Teleri learned shipbuilding and those sorts of things from them, while the Noldor went to Valinor and it was there that they learnt most of what they knew. When they returned, they spread their knowledge.

True, but the Avari never were associated, as Men were, with immediately falling into evil when they were left to their own devices. Elves on the whole seem to have an innate instinct to the good that Men lacked. Ex. The Elves fled from Melkor and feared him in their earliest days while Men worshiped him.

Even though their homes for long years were in Rhovanion, relatively near large settlements of Silvan Elves in Mirkwood and Lórien, they seem to have had little contact with them and instead regarded them with fear and awe.

The Rohirrim and related peoples had extensive contact with the dwarves in their past, though.

but people like the Breelanders seemed still good.

Now the Breelanders are an interesting study because they were of Dunnish stock way back in their day. The Dunlanders are explicitly mentioned as fearing and shunning the elves and being shunned by them in turn.

I suppose the long years of being in Arnor may have wrought the change in them.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Elves on the whole seem to have an innate instinct to the good that Men lacked. Ex. The Elves fled from Melkor and feared him in their earliest days while Men worshiped him.

Orome a Valar was the Elves' first contact with a higher power; Morgoth was Man's first contact.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Orome a Valar was the Elves' first contact with a higher power; Morgoth was Man's first contact.

That's true, although Morgoth was aware of the Elves before the Valar discovered them.

For by after-knowledge the wise declare that Melkor, ever watchful, was first aware of the awakening of the Quendi, and send shadows and evil spirits to spy upon them and waylay them.

It is curious that Melkor didn't personally go to investigate.

[littlemanpoet]

Okay, it seems that we've more or less exhausted a discussion of the possible exceptions to the general inference that Men tend to be evil unless they have some kind of experience with the Eldar, direct or indirect.

I'm curious: why is contact with the Eldar so crucial?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Okay, it seems that we've more or less exhausted a discussion of the possible exceptions to the general inference that Men tend to be evil unless they have some kind of experience with the Eldar, direct or indirect.

I'm curious: why is contact with the Eldar so crucial?

Well, once again, I would say that it was not the contact with Eldar per se, it was rather the contact with Valar, or rather "with the Light from the West". The Eldar were the best "medium" through which this light might come (meaning, of course, those who have seen the Light, in some way). I think that is told quite obviously at some moments of the Silmarillion.

[Selador]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Okay, it seems that we've more or less exhausted a discussion of the possible exceptions to the general inference that Men tend to be evil unless they have some kind of experience with the Eldar, direct or indirect.

I'm curious: why is contact with the Eldar so crucial?

I think Faith is the key element. The ability of Men to walk a righteous path in Middle-earth seems to be closely related to how much they are able to put their faith in Eru's divine plan. The friends of the Elves are better able to do this, because they become enlightened by the Elves. The High Elves have had direct contact with the Valar and have been taught about the goodness of Eru. But Men may only learn of the Valar indirectly, so naturally they have a harder time accepting the ideas of Faith, Belief, Hope. Notice how the "good" men of Númenor are called "The Faithful" and the King Returned is named "Hope". These are the seminal virtues of "good" men. Despair is always associated with those who go astray. Often this despair comes from the fear of Death.

Yet, remember, the Men of Tolkien's Middle-earth are simply Men. We are the Men of Middle-earth, and we have the same tendencies as the ones we are reading about. I don't think we are naturally evil or disposed toward evil (at least I try to believe that), but all men are faced with choices and have the freedom to choose between good or evil. Those who keep Faith in something greater than themselves, some inherent goodness in the universe, an afterlife, a merciful God - something - these people are more naturally disposed toward "good". Those who despair or turn inward, those who give up hope of any inherent "good" in the world, those who distrust the divine plan - these people are pushed towards selfishness, bitterness, evil. I'm not saying faith in the divine plan is the only path to righteousness, but it does generally help people, and people generally will end up putting their faith in something (or someone) to keep hope alive in them. As Jackson Browne sang: "Everyone I know, everywhere I go, people need some reason to believe."

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Selador

Yet, remember, the Men of Tolkien's Middle-earth are simply Men. We are the Men of Middle-earth, and we have the same tendencies as the ones we are reading about. I don't think we are naturally evil or disposed toward evil (at least I try to believe that)

I'm not sure I agree with that.

Humanity in Tolkien's world, barring instruction from the elves do seem to all fall into evil, or at least be classified as such. The Edain did move westward, not consciously seeking the elves, but trying to escape the influence of Morgoth. Unfortunately, their numbers compared to the population of humanity at large do not seem to have been very large.

In humanity's defense it must be said that they were not allowed to develop in a vacuum but had Morgoth's malign influence on them almost from the moment they awakened.

[littlemanpoet]

Selador, I don't think it's quite as clear cut as that. Consider the words of Aragorn in response to one of the hobbits bemoaning the passing of Gandalf in Moria - "It's hopeless now!" Aragorn says, "Then we shall have to do without hope."

But there's something we're overlooking here, at least in terms of the First Age. The Three Houses of Men that came furthest west: Haleth and the others, tended toward honor, goodness, nobility and all the rest before they ever met an Elf. How does that fit into this theory of ours that meeting the Eldar was so critical?

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Okay, it seems that we've more or less exhausted a discussion of the possible exceptions to the general inference that Men tend to be evil unless they have some kind of experience with the Eldar, direct or indirect.

I'm curious: why is contact with the Eldar so crucial?

What about the Drúedain? They don't show evidence of contact with the Eldar, and yet they also don't seem to show any inclination towards evil.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, the Elves fell- or rather, many individual Elves fell. The Noldorin Exiles as a group fell. But that's not the same thing as the Fall of the entire race of Man, predisposed to evil from birth.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

What about the Drúedain? They don't show evidence of contact with the Eldar

Ah, but they do. Says so right on the label: Dru-edain. The Eldar considerd them to be Atani, as many of them constituted an ethnically distinct population among the Folk of Haleth.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, the Elves fell- or rather, many individual Elves fell. The Noldorin Exiles as a group fell. But that's not the same thing as the Fall of the entire race of Man, predisposed to evil from birth.

Hm... I would say the correct formulation would be weak towards evil from start. The fea of Men comes ultimately from Eru, which is good; their essence is good; their predisposition and destiny is from start towards Eru, they are an integral and positive part of his plan for creation. However, they come in contact with something that, by design, they have little defenses against, which is the marring of Arda by Melkor. I am not very impressed by this, since Tolkien said in Myths Transformed that every finite being has an inherent weakness, one way or the other - and that was in direct reference to Manwe no less. If we look at the scale of things, the valar (and elves to a lesser extent) simply have a much higher magnitude of fea, compared to Men, and so their ability to fight inherent corruption is much greater.

[Selador]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, the Elves fell- or rather, many individual Elves fell. The Noldorin Exiles as a group fell. But that's not the same thing as the Fall of the entire race of Man, predisposed to evil from birth.

I have to disagree. I don't see any fundamental difference. Many individual men fell, but many others did not. There were certainly good men, and so I don't think that one can say that the entire race of Men fell. They were universally susceptible to fall, yes. But Elves were also universally susceptible to fall. Otherwise, no individual Elves could have fallen.