Manwë stumbles

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

You are of the race of Man, a third creation. Manwe is of the Valar, the first created. I think there must be folk wisdom that talks of declining vigour and virility as creation continues.

That's all true, except that I have more children that he.

And anyway, Manwe was of lesser power than Melkor, wasn't he? Weren't they all?

"All the best people work at some other company." Why is it all the ones that have it all go 'bad?' Is it that they have no where else to go but down, or is it that they, seeing more clearly than all others, see the real truth and so rebel?

It was only Melkor who went into the void seeking the Flame Imperishable. Beware the loner.

Agreed. One should share knowledge and the pursuit of the same.

See above. Cats were domesticated long after dogs. They are still a work in progress.

I thought that they were just finishing up domesticating humans.

One of the things that's really interesting about the Biblical Flood is God's reaction when Noah offers ritual sacrifices of the animals that God has just caused to be saved. (Talk of learned responses.)

"One less!" Saved them from the flood for the fire. How lucky. Explains those unicorns, or the lack thereof.

(The rainbow is often regarded sentimentally as God's promise not to destroy life, but it also means that God has left man to his own responsibility, so it becomes a stoic reminder that we are on our own now.) Interestingly, Tolkien's Eru does not voice any kind of regret over the loss of Numenor or the removal the Deathless Realm, not regret such as is suggested in the Bible. Nor does he offer to save Numemor if a few faithful can be found. Nor does Eru ever make any kind of covenant with Elendil.

Interesting. I guess a god cannot regret. I just wonder what was so special about the rebellion of Numenor that made Eru jump in.

Note that any seriousness on my part is a small effort to forestall any further fanfiction attempts by you. But I suppose you've given more ideas for Lush's bad fanfic thread.

I knew that's it been your job to keep me in check.

Thanks for the responses.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Eschewing the Biblical parallels and such, I always figured Eru's motives -- and quite likely a lot of the motives of the Valar -- were beyond the full comprehension of the Men and Elves who recorded the tale of the Akallabeth. Manwe and Melkor always struck me as somewhat akin to the twin brothers Nissyen and Efnissyen of the Welsh Mabinogian, two halves of a whole in terms of good and evil (although Efnissyen is less absolute in his evil, since he repents in the end and sacrifices himself to destroy the Cauldron and save the Welsh forces from its armies of Undead, something I can't picture Melkor doing). It is said in the Silmarillion (IIRC) that Manwe cannot comprehend evil, having within him no evil. This is the first time that Valinor was directly assailed by armies of the Eruhini; my suspicion has long been that Manwe simply didn't know how to handle the situation. The Secondborn in particular have a fate unknown to him; any major action against them might subvert that destiny. So he falls back to asking Eru to take a hand, since He will know what the situation demands. It seems a rather extreme measure -- not unlike the Great Flood, since one has to assume there were innocent children in the world, even if every adult in existence was corrupt -- but by this point, it may have been the best solution to a problem the Valar themselves began when they did not deal with Melkor more expediently, and brought the Elves to Valinor, rather than trust that Eru would protect His Children while the Valar handled Melkor. Because he is good and without evil does not mean Manwe is free from mistakes. Perhaps if he had called upon Eru for help a long time before, the destruction of Numenor would not have happened. If the privilege of dwelling in Aman had not been granted to the Elves, they and Men would have had to find ways to coexist in Middle-earth -- with Melkor and his minions subdued before they had a chance to so thoroughly spoil the world.

Well, that's what's been burbling around my head for a while.

[Formendacil]

Why don't some of the Valar go bad, eh?

I don't know, but my instinct in the matter is to say that it's a done deal for them, harking back to the Ainulindalë. After all, with the exception of Men, this is "as fate" to all others, including the Valar and Maiar. Exactly how this works for the Elves, who seem to have at least some element of freedom, I've never quite been able to fathom, but that's a topic for another thread perhaps. The question here in the Valar.

With the Valar, I have no such infathomabilities, since, as I see it, from the Valar's perspective, the unfolding of history has already happened before--namely in the Music. And since they had their freedom during the Music, and made choices accordingly, to sing with Melkor's discord or to follow Eru's themes, they are bound by these choices in Arda. Their actions in history are the time-bound unfolding of their musical choices during the Music.

At least, that's sort of always been my premise. Not sure, though, that it actually bears up under full inspection.

[Inziladun]

Manwe was of lesser power than Melkor, wasn't he? Weren't they all?

I might take issue with that, as it is said

Manwë and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar.

And again

Great might was given to (Melkor) by Ilúvatar and he was coëval with Manwë.

Manwë had no concept of evil until he saw the deeds of Melkor, and even then

Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he.

I don't think there's really an answer as to why Melkor is the only one of the Valar who turned to evil. As was alluded to in an earlier post, some people are bad, some good. Free will is certainly a factor, but I think all are born with an innate tendancy toward one side of the other, to be embraced or rejected as chosen by the individual.
I think it's interesting that another Vala, Aulë, went so far as to try to make his own race of beings without the consent of Ilúvatar, just as Melkor wished to do. The motives of both were very different, and when confronted by Ilúvater, Aulë understood the enormity of his error and how far beyond his authority he had indeed gone.

I just wonder what was so special about the rebellion of Numenor that made Eru jump in.

As to that Tolkein said in a letter

Faced by this rebellion of appalling folly and blasphemy, and also real peril (since the Númenóreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself) the Valar lay down their delegated power and appeal to God, and receive the power and permission to deal with the situation.

(emphasis added)

[Morthoron]

Melkor wasn't really bad at first, he just couldn't harmonize. He had the misfortune of being in a celestial choir with a voice like Bob Dylan (and anyone who has heard Dylan trying to harmonize will see my point).

[alatar]

Reverse that: Manwe wasn't always good at first...just doesn't work.