Manwë stumbles

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

And note that I've wondered about this in regards to Abrahamic religions in that if a third of the angels fell with Lucifer (and they had no snake to tempt them), what would stop another third from falling sometime between now and the end of eternity?

Perhaps because they remember the battle in heaven wherebye Lucifer and the rebel angels were defeated and thrown into the torments of Hell and don't want to be similarly tormented and placed? Of course, I'm thinking of Milton's Paradise Lost, the theology of which is dicey. The Vatican, after all, placed it on its list of banned books.

Melkor had no forerunner so he could not conceive what his loss would be like. Manwe knew/knows what the cost of pride/ambition/rebellion is. This is the right use of longevity, rather than the nostalgia to which the elves were prey.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Manwe knew/knows what the cost of pride/ambition/rebellion is.

Never stopped me.

Our laws today, with the threat of punishment, are obviously not deterrents. So what you are saying is that, if not for the example of Melkor's punishment, Manwe would be running amok? Not sure that that's what I'm getting at. Maybe, to speak more in your terms, why is Manwe such the dog? Isn't there even a bit of feline in him, making him want to tease his "master," if not outright disobey him?

Why were the teams decided so long ago for these beings? Is there never even a thought of playing for the other side? Could Eru do something that would push Manwe into rebellion?

Think how lucky a parent Eru is, never having to wonder which 'kid' broke the vase.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

Never stopped me.

You are of the race of Man, a third creation. Manwe is of the Valar, the first created. I think there must be folk wisdom that talks of declining vigour and virility as creation continues. And anyway, Manwe was of lesser power than Melkor, wasn't he? Weren't they all? It was only Melkor who went into the void seeking the Flame Imperishable. Beware the loner.

Originally Posted by alatar

Maybe, to speak more in your terms, why is Manwe such the dog? Isn't there even a bit of feline in him, making him want to tease his "master," if not outright disobey him?

See above. Cats were domesticated long after dogs. They are still a work in progress.

Originally Posted by alatar

Why were the teams decided so long ago for these beings? Is there never even a thought of playing for the other side? Could Eru do something that would push Manwe into rebellion?

Think how lucky a parent Eru is, never having to wonder which 'kid' broke the vase.

One of the things that's really interesting about the Biblical Flood is God's reaction when Noah offers ritual sacrifices of the animals that God has just caused to be saved. (Talk of learned respsonses.)

Originally Posted by Genesis 6:20

Then Noah built an altar [note, not an alatar] to the LORD. He took ritually clean beasts and birds of every kind, and offered whole-offerings on the altar. When the LORD smelt the soothing odour, he said within himself, 'Never again will I curse the ground because of man, however evil his inclinations may be from his youth upwards. I will never again kill every living creature, as I have just done.

The Covenant is made not just with Noah, but with all future generations and with all living creatures. And it is repeated three times. Something happened when the Lord realized what he had done to creation. He will still make spot cleansing operations, with Babel and Sodom, but destroy the entire creation, no. (And he does make an agreement with Abraham to save Sodom if only ten good men could be found in the city. Lot can't find ten good men.)

(The rainbow is often regarded sentimentally as God's promise not to destroy life, but it also means that God has left man to his own responsibility, so it becomes a stoic reminder that we are on our own now.) Interestingly, Tolkien's Eru does not voice any kind of regret over the loss of Numenor or the removal the Deathless Realm, not regret such as is suggested in the Bible. Nor does he offer to save Numemor if a few faithful can be found. Nor does Eru ever make any kind of covenant with Elendil.

Note that any seriousness on my part is a small effort to forestall any further fanfiction attempts by you. But I suppose you've given more ideas for Lush's bad fanfic thread.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

You are of the race of Man, a third creation. Manwe is of the Valar, the first created. I think there must be folk wisdom that talks of declining vigour and virility as creation continues.

That's all true, except that I have more children that he.

And anyway, Manwe was of lesser power than Melkor, wasn't he? Weren't they all?

"All the best people work at some other company." Why is it all the ones that have it all go 'bad?' Is it that they have no where else to go but down, or is it that they, seeing more clearly than all others, see the real truth and so rebel?

It was only Melkor who went into the void seeking the Flame Imperishable. Beware the loner.

Agreed. One should share knowledge and the pursuit of the same.

See above. Cats were domesticated long after dogs. They are still a work in progress.

I thought that they were just finishing up domesticating humans.

One of the things that's really interesting about the Biblical Flood is God's reaction when Noah offers ritual sacrifices of the animals that God has just caused to be saved. (Talk of learned responses.)

"One less!" Saved them from the flood for the fire. How lucky. Explains those unicorns, or the lack thereof.

(The rainbow is often regarded sentimentally as God's promise not to destroy life, but it also means that God has left man to his own responsibility, so it becomes a stoic reminder that we are on our own now.) Interestingly, Tolkien's Eru does not voice any kind of regret over the loss of Numenor or the removal the Deathless Realm, not regret such as is suggested in the Bible. Nor does he offer to save Numemor if a few faithful can be found. Nor does Eru ever make any kind of covenant with Elendil.

Interesting. I guess a god cannot regret. I just wonder what was so special about the rebellion of Numenor that made Eru jump in.

Note that any seriousness on my part is a small effort to forestall any further fanfiction attempts by you. But I suppose you've given more ideas for Lush's bad fanfic thread.

I knew that's it been your job to keep me in check.

Thanks for the responses.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Eschewing the Biblical parallels and such, I always figured Eru's motives -- and quite likely a lot of the motives of the Valar -- were beyond the full comprehension of the Men and Elves who recorded the tale of the Akallabeth. Manwe and Melkor always struck me as somewhat akin to the twin brothers Nissyen and Efnissyen of the Welsh Mabinogian, two halves of a whole in terms of good and evil (although Efnissyen is less absolute in his evil, since he repents in the end and sacrifices himself to destroy the Cauldron and save the Welsh forces from its armies of Undead, something I can't picture Melkor doing). It is said in the Silmarillion (IIRC) that Manwe cannot comprehend evil, having within him no evil. This is the first time that Valinor was directly assailed by armies of the Eruhini; my suspicion has long been that Manwe simply didn't know how to handle the situation. The Secondborn in particular have a fate unknown to him; any major action against them might subvert that destiny. So he falls back to asking Eru to take a hand, since He will know what the situation demands. It seems a rather extreme measure -- not unlike the Great Flood, since one has to assume there were innocent children in the world, even if every adult in existence was corrupt -- but by this point, it may have been the best solution to a problem the Valar themselves began when they did not deal with Melkor more expediently, and brought the Elves to Valinor, rather than trust that Eru would protect His Children while the Valar handled Melkor. Because he is good and without evil does not mean Manwe is free from mistakes. Perhaps if he had called upon Eru for help a long time before, the destruction of Numenor would not have happened. If the privilege of dwelling in Aman had not been granted to the Elves, they and Men would have had to find ways to coexist in Middle-earth -- with Melkor and his minions subdued before they had a chance to so thoroughly spoil the world.

Well, that's what's been burbling around my head for a while.

[Formendacil]

Why don't some of the Valar go bad, eh?

I don't know, but my instinct in the matter is to say that it's a done deal for them, harking back to the Ainulindalë. After all, with the exception of Men, this is "as fate" to all others, including the Valar and Maiar. Exactly how this works for the Elves, who seem to have at least some element of freedom, I've never quite been able to fathom, but that's a topic for another thread perhaps. The question here in the Valar.

With the Valar, I have no such infathomabilities, since, as I see it, from the Valar's perspective, the unfolding of history has already happened before--namely in the Music. And since they had their freedom during the Music, and made choices accordingly, to sing with Melkor's discord or to follow Eru's themes, they are bound by these choices in Arda. Their actions in history are the time-bound unfolding of their musical choices during the Music.

At least, that's sort of always been my premise. Not sure, though, that it actually bears up under full inspection.

[Inziladun]

Manwe was of lesser power than Melkor, wasn't he? Weren't they all?

I might take issue with that, as it is said

Manwë and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar.

And again

Great might was given to (Melkor) by Ilúvatar and he was coëval with Manwë.

Manwë had no concept of evil until he saw the deeds of Melkor, and even then

Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he.

I don't think there's really an answer as to why Melkor is the only one of the Valar who turned to evil. As was alluded to in an earlier post, some people are bad, some good. Free will is certainly a factor, but I think all are born with an innate tendancy toward one side of the other, to be embraced or rejected as chosen by the individual.
I think it's interesting that another Vala, Aulë, went so far as to try to make his own race of beings without the consent of Ilúvatar, just as Melkor wished to do. The motives of both were very different, and when confronted by Ilúvater, Aulë understood the enormity of his error and how far beyond his authority he had indeed gone.

I just wonder what was so special about the rebellion of Numenor that made Eru jump in.

As to that Tolkein said in a letter

Faced by this rebellion of appalling folly and blasphemy, and also real peril (since the Númenóreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself) the Valar lay down their delegated power and appeal to God, and receive the power and permission to deal with the situation.

(emphasis added)

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

You are of the race of Man, a third creation. Manwe is of the Valar, the first created. I think there must be folk wisdom that talks of declining vigour and virility as creation continues. And anyway, Manwe was of lesser power than Melkor, wasn't he? Weren't they all? It was only Melkor who went into the void seeking the Flame Imperishable. Beware the loner.

I will have to reply to this with a single word. Ulmo. He at first was Manwe's "best friend". He got "private tutoring" from Eru. Later on, he separates from the other Valar "preferring the sea", but yet, he knows more about the happeings in ME than all the otherVala through water. And water is the least marred of all things in Arda, even air (Manwe's creation). Later on, he goes against the beliefs of the other Valar, he is "the voice that gainsayeth" *wink wink Legate* but also "a light where darkness was decreed" (if that's not too long, I'm stealing that as my personal title). So even though he is not with the Valar, he is still on their side, in fact, even more on their side than themselves. He communicates with Cirdan, a firstborn, while the Valar leave ME, and only help later by sending the Istari. Even then, Ulmo, most likely unbidden by the Valar, tells Cirdan to give his ring to Olorin, which helps the free peoples greatly, and maybe without this gift Sauron would have had dominion over all of ME. Without "joining the good side", Ulmo is a good side in his own right. What I mean is that even though he distances himself from the others, he still remains true, and uncorrupted. He's actually a bit like Eru's "secret weapon". So if Ulmo, alone in the deeps of the world, and the great sea does not feel slightly inclined to turn to the dark side (even though he journeys alone), why would Manwe, when he is surrounded by all the good of the world. And Ulmo is the next step down in power from Manwe, and not by that much.


On a different note, Ulmo, in a way, caused Numenor, by helping Tuor. In fact, during its destruction, maybe that is why the Valar "laid down their government of Arda" for the time, because Ulmo would not do it. And maybe in that case, Ulmo would be right. Maybe by destroying Numenor Eru was just doing a favour for the Valar, after all the good they did for him and in his name. Or he could have got angry. Or maybe Eru was just trying to protect his Valar, and got only slightly carried away. He might not have wanted to do it all. He might have regretted it too, but no-one would have ever told mere Eldar that their Father and creator could make a mistake. Even without such cause to doubt him the Numenoreans had turned away from him to "Melkor worship", so imagine what would have happened if one of the "good" Vala like Manwe had told the Faithful (or any other men, or even elves, for that matter) of Eru's mistake. Even if the Faithful disagreed with the "turned-bad" Numenoreans, they were still related, still of the same blood. Even the Eldar have been known to doubt the "good" Valar (e.g. Feanor in the First Age). So, if this was the case, he was protecting them from themselves and their own wrong judgement. Wouldn't you lose faith if you found out that someone had wrongly destroyed your whole former country and killed everyone in/on it? I would definately doubt the Valar and/or Eru. It might have been the biggest cover-up in ME history.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Interestingly, Tolkien's Eru does not voice any kind of regret over the loss of Numenor or the removal the Deathless Realm, not regret such as is suggested in the Bible. Nor does he offer to save Numemor if a few faithful can be found. Nor does Eru ever make any kind of covenant with Elendil.

But are you sure that Eru is not letting the Faithful escape. He could have just as easily let tem get killed.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

But are you sure that Eru is not letting the Faithful escape. He could have just as easily let tem get killed.

I think this is good point. After all, it's not as if Sauron was wholly responsible for the corruption of Numenor. The rift between the King's Men and the Faithful had become entrenched a thousand years before he showed up, and rumblings against the Ban of the Valar had been around even before that. If I recall correctly, Sauron took umbrage at Ar-Pharazon proclaiming himself the Lord of Middle-earth, as the Valar took umbrage at him calling himself the Lord of the West (a title that already belonged more rightfully to Manwe). The people of Numenor had a long time to choose which side they would be on, that of the King or that of Eru and the Valar, and most of them appear to have chosen the King. One could argue that this came about out of fear, but when the second to last king, Tar-Palantir, attempted to restore the old ways of friendship with the Elves and faithfulness to the Valar and the One, it doesn't appear that the people wholly embraced this opportunity for change. When Ar-Pharazon forced himself on Tar-Palantir's daughter to proclaim himself king, he was not stopped -- something I think rather unlikely, if the people had indeed chosen to return to the old ways. Even so, they were given additional warnings, and though Sauron spread lies as to their true meaning, the Faithful knew them for lies, and took what action they could. Why did they know that it was time to flee? How did they figure this out, or who told them? One might suspect that they were warned -- but not by anyone in Numenor. If Manwe sent signs in the form of storms and eagles, others of the Valar, or even Eru Himself, could have sent warnings more direct to the Faithful. I suspect they probably did -- and I also suspect that Eru regretted the destruction of Numenor as much as He regretted all that happened in the First Age because of mistakes the Valar had made in their dealings with the Elves.

To me, it seems that when they made Numenor for the Edain, the Valar didn't understand the nature of jealousy. A gift that brings one too close to what they cannot have, and thus reminds them of what they cannot -- indeed, are forbidden to -- have, isn't much of a gift at all, IMHO; sooner or later, someone thus "rewarded" is going to think that it's not a reward, and become jealous and angry. Why the Valar didn't foresee this possibility (probability?) has long puzzled me.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

To me, it seems that when they made Numenor for the Edain, the Valar didn't understand the nature of jealousy. A gift that brings one too close to what they cannot have, and thus reminds them of what they cannot -- indeed, are forbidden to -- have, isn't much of a gift at all, IMHO; sooner or later, someone thus "rewarded" is going to think that it's not a reward, and become jealous and angry. Why the Valar didn't foresee this possibility (probability?) has long puzzled me.

Indeed. Men want what they don't have. This simple fact should have been clear to the Valar had they spent any time among men.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Inziladan

I might take issue with that, as it is said

And again

Interesting quotes, as I was thinking of these passages from The Silm:

Originally Posted by Ainulindale

To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethern. . . . Then Iluvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor.

Manwe is said to be the most noble, but these passages to me mark Melkor as preeminent among the Ainur. Most particular, he was given a share in all the gifts of the Ainur, whereas the others merely had their own gift. Also, while he like Aule wishes to create Beings, Aule keeps his creation secret and does not add it to the theme. Melkor is the only Ainur whose thoughts intrude differently upon the Music.

Originally Posted by Ainulindale

But now Iluvatar sad and harkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imaginings that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself.

Melkor is the first of the Ainur who is mentioned in the text. In my edition which starts on p. 3, Melkor is first named on p. 4, and no other Ainur is named until p.8.
This is Ulmo. Manwe is named two lines later. Because of this extraordinary attention to just one of the Ainur, I would not, as Ibrîniðilpathânezel has said, see Melkor and Manwe as the twin brothers Nissyen and Efnissyen of the Welsh Mabinogian, two halves of a whole in terms of good and evil, although I agree with her that the Welsh tales carry some interesting 'applications' to Tolkien and are worth considering in any discussion.

Melkor is portrayed as an arrogant intellect, supreme in his confidence and abilities. I have met many very gifted and intelligent people in my life, and very often it is those who have the highest intellectual and imaginative abilities who are the most self-assured of their own desires and wants and who become, as does Melkor, "impatient of it's [the Void's] emptiness", that is to say, impatient of the lesser capabilies of others and their work and ambitious to pursue their own (allegedly) greater vision. Because of this comparison, I often see Melkor's problem as the effect of his own superlative abilities. I think only Melkor among the Ainur has this kind of conceited self-confidence, and, more importantly, impatience.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

But are you sure that Eru is not letting the Faithful escape. He could have just as easily let tem get killed.

My point was that the text does not 'go into' Eru's reaction as the bilical text does into Yahweh's reaction. Speaking three times of a convenant--and a covenant with animals as well as people--provides far more of a psychological perspective than does the mere action of allowing the faithful to escape. And the passage I was referring to regarding Abraham's repeated requests to Yahweh to save Sodom if only a few faithful can be found is usually explicated as Abraham's enlightened vision--other tribes automatically assume that the evilness of the sinful affects the good as well, thus jusitfying the loss of all lives. Here, Abraham's intervention is regarded as one of the first steps in a developing new ethic or moral vision. We don't get any kind of explict statement of this regarding Numenor. We can imagine Iluvatar being regretful, but that is interpretation, as there is no textual evidence for it. That's all I meant. Iluvatar is given lines to speak early in the Ainulindale, but not in the the Akallabeth at the conclusion.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

To me, it seems that when they made Numenor for the Edain, the Valar didn't understand the nature of jealousy. A gift that brings one too close to what they cannot have, and thus reminds them of what they cannot -- indeed, are forbidden to -- have, isn't much of a gift at all, IMHO; sooner or later, someone thus "rewarded" is going to think that it's not a reward, and become jealous and angry. Why the Valar didn't foresee this possibility (probability?) has long puzzled me.

This question can be asked of Eru as well. Why did he not know know how Melkor's greater gifts would effect him? Why did he know know how Men would feel about the Gift of Death, particularly with deathless elves around? And why would he not know how elves would become so careless of life and engage in such killing fields?

Of course, what parent can truly realise who his or her child is? A unique creation is, ultimately, unknowable to the creator.