Manwë stumbles

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

You are of the race of Man, a third creation. Manwe is of the Valar, the first created. I think there must be folk wisdom that talks of declining vigour and virility as creation continues. And anyway, Manwe was of lesser power than Melkor, wasn't he? Weren't they all? It was only Melkor who went into the void seeking the Flame Imperishable. Beware the loner.

I will have to reply to this with a single word. Ulmo. He at first was Manwe's "best friend". He got "private tutoring" from Eru. Later on, he separates from the other Valar "preferring the sea", but yet, he knows more about the happeings in ME than all the otherVala through water. And water is the least marred of all things in Arda, even air (Manwe's creation). Later on, he goes against the beliefs of the other Valar, he is "the voice that gainsayeth" *wink wink Legate* but also "a light where darkness was decreed" (if that's not too long, I'm stealing that as my personal title). So even though he is not with the Valar, he is still on their side, in fact, even more on their side than themselves. He communicates with Cirdan, a firstborn, while the Valar leave ME, and only help later by sending the Istari. Even then, Ulmo, most likely unbidden by the Valar, tells Cirdan to give his ring to Olorin, which helps the free peoples greatly, and maybe without this gift Sauron would have had dominion over all of ME. Without "joining the good side", Ulmo is a good side in his own right. What I mean is that even though he distances himself from the others, he still remains true, and uncorrupted. He's actually a bit like Eru's "secret weapon". So if Ulmo, alone in the deeps of the world, and the great sea does not feel slightly inclined to turn to the dark side (even though he journeys alone), why would Manwe, when he is surrounded by all the good of the world. And Ulmo is the next step down in power from Manwe, and not by that much.


On a different note, Ulmo, in a way, caused Numenor, by helping Tuor. In fact, during its destruction, maybe that is why the Valar "laid down their government of Arda" for the time, because Ulmo would not do it. And maybe in that case, Ulmo would be right. Maybe by destroying Numenor Eru was just doing a favour for the Valar, after all the good they did for him and in his name. Or he could have got angry. Or maybe Eru was just trying to protect his Valar, and got only slightly carried away. He might not have wanted to do it all. He might have regretted it too, but no-one would have ever told mere Eldar that their Father and creator could make a mistake. Even without such cause to doubt him the Numenoreans had turned away from him to "Melkor worship", so imagine what would have happened if one of the "good" Vala like Manwe had told the Faithful (or any other men, or even elves, for that matter) of Eru's mistake. Even if the Faithful disagreed with the "turned-bad" Numenoreans, they were still related, still of the same blood. Even the Eldar have been known to doubt the "good" Valar (e.g. Feanor in the First Age). So, if this was the case, he was protecting them from themselves and their own wrong judgement. Wouldn't you lose faith if you found out that someone had wrongly destroyed your whole former country and killed everyone in/on it? I would definately doubt the Valar and/or Eru. It might have been the biggest cover-up in ME history.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Interestingly, Tolkien's Eru does not voice any kind of regret over the loss of Numenor or the removal the Deathless Realm, not regret such as is suggested in the Bible. Nor does he offer to save Numemor if a few faithful can be found. Nor does Eru ever make any kind of covenant with Elendil.

But are you sure that Eru is not letting the Faithful escape. He could have just as easily let tem get killed.