The effect of the Great Rings upon Men

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Does Professor Tolkien ever specifically use the phrase "Rings of Power" to include the Three?

As already mentioned by me, Tolkien first has Gandalf use the term “Rings of Power” when explaining the creation of the Elven-rings by the Elven-smiths of Eregion. He makes Gandalf then say:

The lesser rings were but essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles – yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous.

This implies, though does not prove, that Gandalf here uses “the Rings of Power” as a synonym for the Elven-rings. Gandalf could be conceived as jumping ahead to the Sauronic Rings in his explanation.

Thrór giving his Sauronic Ring freely to Thráin is a difficulty. Gandalf must be conceived of not to know that Thrór gave the Ring to Thráin freely. That is a possibility I admit, though it seems to me unlikely. But unlikely possibilities occur in real life. In “The Council of Elrond” Tolkien makes Gandalf say openly:

Thrór gave it [the Ring] to Thráin his son, but not Thráin to Thorin. It was taken with torment from Thráin in the dungeons of Dol Guldur.

In short, if Gandalf did not know that Thrór gave his Ring freely to his son Thráin, and if the term “Rings of Power” is used at times specifically for the Sauronic Rings as opposed to the Three Elven Rings, then Gandalf is telling the truth.

I would prefer an explanation with less hair-splitting, but that is the best explanation that I have heard.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

You're not helping anyone that way, just aggravating people around you.

My intent was not to open up a discussion on Gandalf’s statement in “The Shadow of the Past” but only to indicate that Tolkien had made far more errors than Mithadan believed and that this is well known and indicated in the prefix material in current editions of The Lord of the Rings and in Hammond and Scull’s The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion.

That one of the examples I chose, one noted by Hammond and Scull, raised such a fury in Morthoron with unsupported accusations of hairsplitting I did not expect. Honestly! I found Zigûr’s possible and admittedly dubious explanation calm and reasonable, as usual with him. Also, very hair-splitting.

I am very sorry you were aggravated by this sub-discussion. But no single individual poster is responsible for where a thread goes.

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

I don't know what people think, but I've always got irritated with Elrond stating that it was 'not permitted' to speak about the Three. My question has been in response, 'Not permitted by whom?' If Elrond had just said that it was dangerous to talk openly about those rings, it would have been understood by everyone present.

I have always thought that Elrond was referring to agreements among ruling Elves: Círdan, Elrond, Galadriel and Celeborn, and possibly a few others. Aragorn also at least knows that Galadriel was a ring-bearer, but this may be only from Frodo’s loose-lipped talk, and Frodo only knows, it is implied, because he sees Galadriel’s Ring on her hand. According to Tolkien’s essay “The Istari” Saruman also knows that Gandalf bears Narya. But in Tolkien’s essay “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age”:

But the Red Ring remained hidden until the end, and none save Elrond and Galadriel and Círdan knew to whom it had been committed.

The real question it seems to me is why the identity of the bearers of the Elvish Rings is a secret at all. Originally they were held secretly and unused for fear of Sauron discovering them. But when Sauron was defeated at the end of the Second Age the secrecy remained.

The answer may be in “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age” where it is written:

And Master Elrond foretold that this [the reforging of Narsil] would not be done until the Ruling Ring should be found again and Sauron should return.

[Faramir Jones]

I was interested in what you said here, jallanite:

I have always thought that Elrond was referring to agreements among ruling Elves: Círdan, Elrond, Galadriel and Celeborn, and possibly a few others.

I did think the same, although I think Elrond presented it badly. Well, 'even Homer nods'; and we later see Aragorn refuse to leave his sword before entering Meduseld, despite this being a perfectly reasonable request for the King to ask.

I liked what you said here:

The real question it seems to me is why the identity of the bearers of the Elvish Rings is a secret at all. Originally they were held secretly and unused for fear of Sauron discovering them. But when Sauron was defeated at the end of the Second Age the secrecy remained.

Ever since I first read LotR, I've thought that it would have been very easy for anyone, not just Sauron, to figure out who those bearers might be. They would have to be prominent Elves, with the ability to wield the rings properly; so a simple process of elimination would narrow down the group of possible candidates. Galadriel, when she spoke to Frodo, after the latter wondered how he was not able to use the powers of the One Ring, pointed out that if he tried to do, it would 'destroy' him. After reminding him that Gandalf said the rings 'give power according to the measure of each possessor', she said, 'Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and train your will to the domination of others'.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Ever since I first read LotR, I've thought that it would have been very easy for anyone, not just Sauron, to figure out who those bearers might be. They would have to be prominent Elves, with the ability to wield the rings properly; so a simple process of elimination would narrow down the group of possible candidates.

I think so as well. To quote myself from a while back (nearly 2 years ago in fact!),

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Logically speaking, there were only three places where the Three could be kept: Rivendell, Lórien and Mithlond - anywhere in which the Noldor still lingered. Sauron didn't know where the Shire was until Saruman told the Lord of the Nazgûl, which suggests to me that he had not necessarily spied out the West sufficiently to know, for instance, that Círdan no longer possessed one of the Three.
My point is that, according to Sauron's wisdom, to whom would the Three have logically been allocated? Lórien was the closest to both Moria and Dol Guldur, and resistant to assault, which implies a Ring being present at that location. If Sauron knew or at least suspected that Gil-Galad held some of the Rings prior to his death, I think it would make sense, by his logic, that he had passed the greatest of them, Vilya, to one of his subordinates - Elrond or Círdan. That leaves Narya and Nenya to be accounted for.
Despite the fact that he himself did not have a hand in creating them we could also imagine that Sauron was aware of the respective properties of the Three. Depending on the circumstances, this may have led him to at least be able to take an educated guess as to Nenya's location.

Originally Posted by jallanite

This implies, though does not prove, that Gandalf here uses “the Rings of Power” as a synonym for the Elven-rings. Gandalf could be conceived as jumping ahead to the Sauronic Rings in his explanation.

Yes I think in this case it could conceivably be argued that when Gandalf says "the Great Rings, the Rings of Power" he is associating the term "Rings of Power" with the term "Great Rings", the Seven and the Nine, specifically.

Originally Posted by jallanite

Thrór giving his Sauronic Ring freely to Thráin is a difficulty. Gandalf must be conceived of not to know that Thrór gave the Ring to Thráin freely. That is a possibility I admit, though it seems to me unlikely. But unlikely possibilities occur in real life. In “The Council of Elrond” Tolkien makes Gandalf say openly:

Thrór gave it [the Ring] to Thráin his son, but not Thráin to Thorin. It was taken with torment from Thráin in the dungeons of Dol Guldur.

In short, if Gandalf did not know that Thrór gave his Ring freely to his son Thráin, and if the term “Rings of Power” is used at times specifically for the Sauronic Rings as opposed to the Three Elven Rings, then Gandalf is telling the truth.

Perhaps Gandalf knew or assumed that, as a Dwarf, Thrór would be more resistant to some of the effects of the Ring, and thus more capable of passing it on to his son?
It could be argued that when Gandalf says to Frodo that no one ever gives up a Ring freely, he's specifically talking about Men (and, by extension, Hobbits).
I realise this is narrowing things down a lot but at the same time it does seem to suggest that he's giving Frodo the information which is most relevant to his particular situation.
It might be that Gandalf's situation is that of a teacher trying to introduce a complex point of lore to a student unfamiliar with the topic: not giving them extraneous, but more accurate, information, if he thinks it will confuse or distract the student.
Or, of course, it could just be Professor Tolkien making a mistake or not worrying about the readers themselves needing too much accuracy at that point.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Perhaps Gandalf knew or assumed that, as a Dwarf, Thrór would be more resistant to some of the effects of the Ring, and thus more capable of passing it on to his son?
It could be argued that when Gandalf says to Frodo that no one ever gives up a Ring freely, he's specifically talking about Men (and, by extension, Hobbits).
I realise this is narrowing things down a lot but at the same time it does seem to suggest that he's giving Frodo the information which is most relevant to his particular situation.

Since it's clear that the Seven did not have the same effects on Dwarves as the Nine had on Men, I don't see any issue with the idea that the Dwarven Keepers were capable of freely passing on their rings.

That would not have been true of the One though. It was far more potent than any of the 19 others.

[Findegil]

There are many poeple that gave the rings away freely but are not metioned by Gandalf in his talk with Frodo:
The Mirdain hidding the rings might be siad not to give them away but store them in th ehope to regain them later.
Celeberimbor gave his three away but he might have been the source of the tabu to talk about them. The idea behind might have been to suggest to Sauron that they were also hidden away and not given to bearers.
Gil-Galad gave his two freely to Elrond and Cirdan but again that was secret know only to the bearers.
Sauron gave at least the Nine away to manish bears becoming the Nazgul and this at least was open knowledge and told by Gandalf in the same talk to Frodo. (So stricly speaking Gandalf was contradicting himself directly in this single talk with Frodo.)
Cirdan gave his Ring to Gandalf which again was a secret.
The dwarven bearers were also unknown to public, but it was assumed that they passed the rings to their heirs just before death. Balin a companion and close relative of Thrain did not know that Thror had passed the Ring to Thrain before he set out to Moria. Gandalf kept the knowlegde that Thrain had the Ring secret until the Council of Elrond.

I think it can be assumed that Gandalf by propose kept his knowledge about people giving their rings freely away hidden from Frodo. Some instances were especially tabu and other he kept so by his own design.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Faramir Jones]

You were right, Inziladun, when you pointed out that 'It was far more potent than any of the 19 others'. Gandalf made this clear to Frodo at a very early stage in 'The Shadow of the Past', when he said that Sauron 'made that Ring himself, it is his, and he let a great part of his own former power pass into it, so that he could rule all the others'.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Findegil

I think it can be assumed that Gandalf by propose kept his knowledge about people giving their rings freely away hidden from Frodo. Some instances were especially tabu and other he kept so by his own design.

Anything can be assumed. If you or anyone wishes to assume Gandalf was lying then no-one can stop you.

That also works.

I think it can also be assumed that Gandalf was a Martian if one wishes.

Similarly it can be assumed that Balrogs had wings or they did not, whatever the person assuming wishes to assume.

I am not trying to be offensive. I point out that Zigûr’s solution also involves assumptions.

Again, your solution and Zigûr’s solution both work, if one accepts your assumptions.

To continue this discussion go to the thread entitled Gandalf’s Possible Inaccuracy in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”. Hopefully this will allow this current thread to continue without talking about Gandalf’s Possible Inaccuracy in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”.

Sorry, Mithadan.

[Ivriniel]

Sauron, the perverter, violator, and who swelled with lust and greed, ever greater, with the more power he allured-subverted, held, incorporated, and violated.

My thoughts:

Secretly, as Annatar, quested to develop a violating version of life extension. Use of the Rings for Mortals meant the men enslaved were 'life syphons', incarnate. Their aura grew in Sauraon's image, and to behold them as Nazgul or hear them was a life-threatening event. Stolen life force. The fear felt around them was instinct governed by the predatory dimensions of human form. I see them as great 'energy sinks' drawing in Living Energy to transmit to master - swelling Sauron's filth, greed, lust and power as the Nazgul engorged on life.

They had a spiritually fortified flesh (albeit, by an 'un' flow, perhaps of Ea running in some variation and inverse). I recall reading somewhere the moment of transition as a Ring bearer of being 'naked' before Sauron as mortal sinew was blasted or stripped of natural form, and imbued with whatever metaphysical joo joo Sauron did.

The flesh could be hued - by Hobbit and Woman. Not sure why or what significance this implied about Sauronic violations.

I've imagined that using a Ring, pre transition, was about greed, sexual perversity, (I assume the so called Lords who had the rings attracted 'bad boi sex' and concubines and such ) And that greed - lust - the primary reinforcers were the reward as the man disowned love and care, by increment. The flesh fortified by increasing flow of metaphysical form of Sauronic Mind (he was a torturer, a sadist, a violator of life, a seducer and a slave lord, above all else).