The effect of the Great Rings upon Men

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

So why would Gandalf confuse Frodo with provisos, quid pro quos, caveat emptors and various other Latin phrases that may or may not have anything to do with what Gandalf was talking about and what he needed to impress upon Frodo so that the Hobbit could achieve his mission?

Precisely. Gandalf avoids lumping in the Three with the others because of their innate differences from the other Great Rings.

Also, in the later discussion at the Council of Elrond, Gandlaf notes of Gollum, that:

'The power of the ring had lengthened his years far beyond their span; but that power only the Great Rings wield.'

Surely there he was not including the Three. Why would rings made by Elves for Elves have the power to extend the wearer's lifespan?

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Gandalf could simply have been referring to the visible forms, imparted by the clothing. I still don't see how ordinary horses would support an insubstantial being.

Because Tolkien indicates they do. Picture enchanted clothing which insubstantial wraiths may wear and which give solidity and weight to their wraith content, but not visibility.

Originally Posted by Firefoot

I think I side with Inziladun on this one... I have no reason to think that the Nazgul were telekinetic, so they must have had some way of interacting with their horses, swords, etc. They can also smell and see (though poorly) which require sensory organs.

When their robes are destroyed the Nazgûl naturally, having no support and being intangible, fall helplessly through the ground to the centre of the Earth. Or rather they would if they had no telekinetic ability. Therefore they must have had some telekinetic ability to float above the ground.

How any invisible being sees at all is a puzzle. How does its invisible eyeball lens focus in its invisible retina?

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Surely there he was not including the Three. Why would rings made by Elves for Elves have the power to extend the wearer's lifespan?

An answer from the Waldman letter:

The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the preservation or slowing of decay (i.e. change viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance – that is more or less an Elvish motive.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I'm not buying it. The RW were invisible, not insubstantial. Or maybe the W-K at the Pelennor had a substantial invisible body wearing armor up to the neck, but no tangible head visible or invisible and he was holding the crown up with telekinesis?

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I'm not buying it. The RW were invisible, not insubstantial. Or maybe the W-K at the Pelennor had a substantial invisible body wearing armor up to the neck, but no tangible head visible or invisible and he was holding the crown up with telekinesis?

Gandalf says, “the black robes are real robes that they wear to give shape to their nothingness when they have dealings with the living.”

This to me strongly implies that without those robes the Nazgûl are unformed and shapeless, and insubstantial. The word nothingness indicates their insubstantialbility. See wraith for dictionary meanings, many of which suggest insubstantialbility.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Gandalf says, “the black robes are real robes that they wear to give shape to their nothingness when they have dealings with the living.”

This to me strongly implies that without hose robes the Nazgûl are unformed and shapeless, and insubstantial. The word nothingness indicates their insubstantialbility. See wraith for dictionary meanings, many of which suggest insubstantialbility.

Merry's sword cleaved the undead sinew as the blade pierced the flesh. As a Blade of the Westernesse

"Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them, but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor."

"But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee."

and

"So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."

I've always thought their sinew was modified by exposure to Sauron's tools of eye of mind that strips part of life force away. They were neither living nor dead. Horses bore them. I assume they were not massless.

"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh will be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye".

Devoured and whatever left, replaced with Sauronic presence, power, or replacement form. Still of mass, I would have thought.

The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.

The conclusions that appear to follow from the quotes:

1. Their bodies had mass.
2. They were invisible.
3. They were neither living nor dead

[Ivriniel]

....and

...cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

This seems to me a significant moment in the narrative commentary about the 'what' of a Nazgul. Something Sauron 'did' via the Rings --a spell-- that somehow --knit-- that vestige of formerly mortal flesh --to will of might of mind--. I wonder now: Tolkien often spoke of Mind holding the Body of Men to Life. Numenoreans could yield their life at old age--with and act of will, or cling until death ended their body. This 'will' facility was explicitly noted in other races, especially the Elves and Elven Mind fortifying body through 'the other world' (Glorfindel being in 'two worlds' at the confrontation of the Ringwraiths).

This implies Sauronic Mind/Will forged connection or extension of Maia Mind to form the variation on flesh that was a Nazgul. Sauronic Mind also destroyed "feasted" on mortal living flesh as the process of transformation occurred.

On another train of thought, the formidable size of the Witch King was noted by Tolkien. Mass this seemed to imply. The flesh was unseen by eye of sight of mortal mind. It could be seen by Elf and by eye of sight of mortal wearing The One. The reason for the invisibility, I would assume, was the same as implied by what Tolkien wrote of Frodo in Elrond's healing room. Some 'fading' of flesh after the Ringwraith attack. Elrond didn't put Frodo completely together again. Some transformation of his flesh had occurred.

The Rings of Power (the Nine made them Invisible when used) is what seems a reasonable conclusion to draw. And each use removes a little bit more of the mortal fibre as the Mind of the User strengthens in synchronisation with Sauraon's Might of Mind. Then at a critical threshold, Sauron rocks in very closely and blasts away the remaining capacity to reverse the process and enslaves.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

....and

...cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

This seems to me a significant moment in the narrative commentary about the 'what' of a Nazgul. Something Sauron 'did' via the Rings --a spell-- that somehow --knit-- that vestige of formerly mortal flesh --to will of might of mind--. I wonder now: Tolkien often spoke of Mind holding the Body of Men to Life. Numenoreans could yield their life at old age--with and act of will, or cling until death ended their body. This 'will' facility was explicitly noted in other races, especially the Elves and Elven Mind fortifying body through 'the other world' (Glorfindel being in 'two worlds' at the confrontation of the Ringwraiths).

I read the quote differently. My will is knit to my sinews for instance, and I will my sinews or limbs to move about, to do stuff. In me, at least, these things are not knit together with a literal "spell" but perhaps a metaphorical one. This was Merry's strike, and in my opinion the Witch King could no longer will his body to defend against Eowyn's strike. Merry called her name, Eowyn tottered or struggled up (hardly words to describe swift action in my opinion), but the Nazgul-lord did not even try to parry the blow.

I believe the Nine had invisible bodies, and although Tolkien doesn't draw a lot of attention to it, I note that when dealing with the Dead who followed Aragorn, fear was enough. In other words, it was said (through an internal character at least) that it was not known if their weapons would bite -- that, to me, is significant. They are ghosts, so even Tolkien will "acknowledge" the question in the minds of readers: do their weapons even work?

The Nine are not questioned about this however. They are like enough to "wraiths" or ghosts -- being invisible and fear instilling -- like enough to be called wraiths. Their robes give shape to the otherwise unseen...

... "nothingness" in that sense (not excluding other senses however), in my opinion; but they are not actual nothing when disrobed, and their weapons bite.

[Findegil]

Surely there he was not including the Three. Why would rings made by Elves for Elves have the power to extend the wearer's lifespan?

Why would a ring made by Sauron exclusivly for his own use have the power to extend the wearer's lifespan?
But it had this power for sure, as we see in the case of Gollum.

Originally Posted by Letter 131 to Milton Waldman, 1951:

The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the preservation or slowing of decay (i.e. change viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance – that is more or less an Elvish motive.

This is porbabaly the key to understand the effects. With this the prolongation of mortal lifespan is a given ability of all 19 Rings. We also see a hint how it functions: the Rings gives the mind the possibility to preserve the desired or loved body it does dwell in. An ability that the elves had by thier nature, but mortals had not and dwraves could not even get with the help of the rings.
In that way the wraithification of the bears seems to be very similar to elvish fading. If that is 'true' than it might be that a Ringwraith could have choosen to abondan his life and with that escape from Sauron. But as all the Rings seem to have a great adictive potential and clinging to life longer than seems reasonable is an repeating motive in Middle-Earth mrotals this becomes near to impossible once the ring has worked long enough on the mind of its bearer.

Originally Posted by Letter 131 to Milton Waldman, 1951:

The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.

Here we come to the differnces between the Rings. Sauron did influence the nine and the seven much more than the three. So it seems that the invisibility was an ability that Sauron wished to be included. When the elves worked on their own using only the knowledge that they had learned from Sauron and not his direct help, they could eliminat the invisibility effect.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[William Cloud Hicklin]

A thought about "binding his unseen sinews to his will"....

Compare the passage, not many pages before, where Tolkien describes the effect of the mere presence of the Nazgul on men, the ultimate psychological weapon:

...letting their weapons fall from nerveless hands while into their minds a blackness came, and they thought no more of war, but only of hiding and of crawling, and of death.

One of my favorite passages, the voice of the Somme veteran who had witnessed shell-shock personally.

But it strikes me now that in an ironic way, the ancient smith of Arnor had managed to turn the tables, giving the Shriekers a taste of their own Black Breath, as it were.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

The conclusions that appear to follow from the quotes:

1. Their bodies had mass.
2. They were invisible.
3. They were neither living nor dead

That pretty well covers it.

You mentioned some good observations about the Witch-king's confrontation with Éowyn and Merry.

Upon the WK's death, it is noted that:

But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up....

ROTK The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

When the Witch-king's spirit was separated from his body, his clothing and armor was "empty", meaning it had before been filled by something physical. And it was only after his "death" that his voice became bodiless. But that begs the question of why the body did not remain on the earth when the spirit passed. I think that can be explained by the special status of the Nazgûl as "undead". Their bodies retained an ability to affect the "real" world, though because their time on earth had been so far extended beyond their natural span, their original bodies were mostly in the Unseen Realm.
If it was only thralldom to Sauron's fea that allowed the Nazgûl a tenuous link to the world of Light, then once that link to him was removed, the body would pass all the way to the other side.
Or, maybe it was a case like Saruman: once the spirit left the body, natural decay set in so quickly that the body became (invisible) dust, which obviously could not support clothing.

Conjecture, certainly, but at least food for thought.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

<--snip Upon the WK's death, it is noted that:

ROTK The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

When the Witch-king's spirit was separated from his body, his clothing and armor was "empty", meaning it had before been filled by something physical. And it was only after his "death" that his voice became bodiless. But that begs the question of why the body did not remain on the earth when the spirit passed--->snip

I hear ya about the 'undead' thing and vanishing in a puff of smoke - or sumatt like that

..... I think that can be explained by the special status of the Nazgûl as "undead". Their bodies retained an ability to affect the "real" world, though because their time on earth had been so far extended beyond their natural span, their original bodies were mostly in the Unseen Realm.....-->snip

I love his ideas about the 'unseen' realm. Kinda gets the imagination wondering. I'd say invisible dust would make sense, which would be kinda creepy on the grass or air where it all went

I wonder if their Spirits go to the Halls of Mandos? And if they had Spirit Palls that would talk to 'em, or is it like a really divided dance hall or party with groups of Spirits in groups

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Or, maybe it was a case like Saruman: once the spirit left the body, natural decay set in so quickly that the body became (invisible) dust, which obviously could not support clothing.

I think this is a serious possibility: the incredibly aged, invisible body simply collapsed into decomposed matter. This is similar to how I think Gollum's belief that he would "die into dust" might be taken literally. It is possible that he expects that his body will virtually disintegrate instantly if the Ring is destroyed.

At the same time, however, I can't help but feel that jallanite has a point regarding the "nothingness" which supposedly constituted a Nazgûl unrobed. Frodo experiences the Eye of Sauron as a "pit, a window into nothing." In a metaphorical sense, this symbolises, I would argue, the idea that Sauron's tyranny and evil are symptomatic of a fundamental "emptiness" and "hollowness" which originated with Melkor and which Professor Tolkien argued had inevitably infected Sauron to a degree. This "nihilism" seems to have constituted a kind of empty, meaningless, pointless wrath and hatred for all life (and of God) which manifested as a "lust for destruction". It represents, to me, the attitude of a mind which has reached the point where it is incapable of interacting with the world except through efforts to dominate it and eventually destroy it. Fire emanates from the rim of the eye, the point of contact between nothingess and "thingness" (if you'll pardon the clumsiness of that expression).

In a metaphysical sense, I would argue that it's possible that the Ringwraiths embody that "nihilism" as a consequence of their artificially prolonged existence. Their physical forms perhaps transmute to a kind of "wraith-matter" for want of a better term: invisible, only partially substantial, and so deeply unnatural at a fundamental level that it inspires depression, terror and loathing in mortals who encounter it. It might be compared to the Unlight of Ungoliant. Perhaps when the Wraith was killed, the "shell" of physical tangibility, like the fire which burned from the Eye, collapses, and all that remains is an invisible emptiness which expires unnoticed, at least to mortal eyes.

I was just looking at a blog which compares Ungoliant's Unlight to a Manichean account of evil as a "thing in itself" as opposed to an Augustinian or Boethian account of evil as the "absence of good". Shippey has argued that The Lord of the Rings blends both concepts. I think the same idea could be extended to things like the Wraiths. One could combine the idea of "evil as absence" and "evil as presence" to form, if this makes sense, "evil as the absence which has presence" or "evil as the thing which is nothing". Perhaps that's redundant, but I feel as if metaphysical explanations can be quite effective in trying to understand some of Professor Tolkien's representations.

EDIT: I might add that, in a very round-about way, the "counterfeit immortality" conveyed by the Rings seems to be part of Sauron's overall arsenal of "counterfeit godhood": essentially nothing more than extremely complex spiritual/metaphysical technology which gave him a kind of makeshift, fake element of "divine power" which would suit the agenda of a would-be God-King. I would argue that having immortal servants (even terrifying, loathsome invisible ones) is not just useful to provide the tyrant with lieutenants, but also, on some level, is an expression of Sauron's underlying God complex.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

When the Witch-king's spirit was separated from his body, his clothing and armor was "empty", meaning it had before been filled by something physical. And it was only after his "death" that his voice became bodiless. But that begs the question of why the body did not remain on the earth when the spirit passed. I think that can be explained by the special status of the Nazgûl as "undead". Their bodies retained an ability to affect the "real" world, though because their time on earth had been so far extended beyond their natural span, their original bodies were mostly in the Unseen Realm.

This almost sounds like the "fading" that Elves go through where their bodies can't hold their fëar and eventually dissipate and are held like a memory.

"They eventually became housed, if it can be called that, not in actual visible and tangible hröar, but only in the memory of the fëa of its bodily form, and its desire for it; and therefore not dependent for mere existence upon the material of Arda." [Morgoth's Ring]