The effect of the Great Rings upon Men

[Gothmog, LoB]

I think we can safely say that neither Círdan nor Gil-galad ever used one of the Three during the Second Age. Therefore them giving away Narya and Vilya doesn't cause a huge problem.

We don't know whether a ring-bearer actually is such a person if he/she just has such a ring in her closet somewhere. Especially the Three should be free of any direct evil influence causing any person keeping them to also use them. Not to mention the knowledge of those keepers that putting them on and using them would soon put them under Sauron's control.

But Galadriel, Elrond, or Gandalf easily parting with Nenya, Vilya, or Narya at the very end of the Third Age - when all of those rings had been in use for 2000-3000 years - is actually very unlikely.

As to the general effectiveness of the Rings of Power on Men:

Well, their clearly weren't designed for Men. Sauron wanted to use them the Elves of Eregion, after all. They were all elven-rings. However, they worked pretty fine on men, too. One assumes that Men mostly used the Nine to enhance their powers - to excel at whatever they were best at or wanted to be best at - but in the end they would have used the inherent preservation power of the rings (which was the main feature of all Rings of Power) on themselves, to be able to remain *alive* even after their time was long over. If pretty much nothing of that butter remains on that bread you most likely look like your average Nazgûl.

In some cases the preservation thing might also have worked inadvertently, with Sauron actually slowly transforming the wearers of the Nine into his Nazgûl-slaves. One assumes none of them actually intended becoming what they eventually became.

The Valar (and at least Sauron via the Rings of Power) clearly had the power/ability to bend the rules in regard to the whole Gift of Men thing. Tolkien's speculations about a Man living in Aman suggests as much, as does Morgoth's ability to keep Húrin alive against his will. I guess one can imagine this as the powers of the Valar being able to block a door or build a dam. Eventually the water is going to break through but if you put a lot of effort into this whole thing it might take a while. A pretty long while, actually.

If somebody like Morgoth focused his entire might on keeping one Man alive forever it most likely could work. It would be living hell for that guy, of course, but it would work.

Whether the Ringwraiths actually still retain 'human flesh' as we would see it isn't clear. Whatever keeps them able to interact with physical reality after their many returns (they go into the shadow after the Ring is taken from Sauron's body) might actually be closer to the fake-flesh the Valar/Maiar used make themselves visible or simply the sort of spiritual power that enables the Valar/Maiar to interact with the physical reality while they don't have any bodies (in the old days they could do that pretty easily).

I'd also assume that none of the Ringwraiths actually ever 'physically died' (and then sort of returned from the dead like a ghost) but that these men were actually physically consumed by the power of their rings - at least on a certain level - because their rings could actually not properly do this life preservation thing their bearers wanted them to do on their bodies. Perhaps Morgoth could have created Rings of Power that could have allowed a man to keep his body and good looks for millennia but that would have been too much for Sauron - especially in light of the fact that the Rings of Power were never designed for Mortals.

To fully become a Ringwraith you most likely have to become the total slave of that Ring. Isildur or Samwise didn't carry the One for a long period of time. It also didn't break down Frodo yet (or rather: not until the very end) but Gollum had a pretty good chance to never die a natural death but becoming more and more consumed simply by his connection to the One Ring and his continued existence.

I'm also not inclined to believe that a Man in possession of Ring of Power who has not become fully enslaved or been transformed into a Ringwraith could ever become if he dies a sudden and unnatural death - especially not the type of death after which his corpse is stripped off the ring which is then used by a new bearer. A violent death should be a sufficient trauma to separate spirit and body and could thus also break whatever mental shackles the ring had already bound his bearer with. Or not. That is really hard to speculate on.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

The Valar (and at least Sauron via the Rings of Power) clearly had the power/ability to bend the rules in regard to the whole Gift of Men thing. Tolkien's speculations about a Man living in Aman suggests as much, as does Morgoth's ability to keep Húrin alive against his will. I guess one can imagine this as the powers of the Valar being able to block a door or build a dam. Eventually the water is going to break through but if you put a lot of effort into this whole thing it might take a while. A pretty long while, actually.

I've always seen the 'immortality' of the Nazgûl as being the result of their ultimate, total subjugation to Sauron's will. He had utterly 'swallowed' their innate spirits into his own fea; thus they were tied to him as long as he himself retained the power to physically exist in Middle-earth.

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

Whether the Ringwraiths actually still retain 'human flesh' as we would see it isn't clear. Whatever keeps them able to interact with physical reality after their many returns (they go into the shadow after the Ring is taken from Sauron's body) might actually be closer to the fake-flesh the Valar/Maiar used make themselves visible or simply the sort of spiritual power that enables the Valar/Maiar to interact with the physical reality while they don't have any bodies (in the old days they could do that pretty easily).

I think they retained their original forms. I don't see why passing into the Hidden Realm, not actually dying, would have altered their bodies.

[Gothmog, LoB]

@Inziladun:

I'd say there were absorbed by their own rings/the One Ring who then totally controlled and 'bound them'. In a sense they were thus also bound to Sauron but only through the One Ring. I think we can safely say that a new Dark Lord - say, Gandalf or Galadriel, using the One to topple Sauron - would then also have commanded the allegiance of the Nazgûl. Perhaps even before they had dealt with Sauron directly because they most certainly wouldn't have been able to attack or even oppose a powerful wielder of the One - regardless whether Sauron in Barad-dûr had still a body or was already reduced to a powerless spirit.

The question what the Hidden Realm actually is is actually quite intriguing. Are the Nazgûl truly invisible to anyone? I don't think so. The 'default setting' of the One seems to be to make a wearer invisible/draw him/her into the spirit world, and neither Gollum nor Bilbo or Frodo ever had the power/control to change that. What was the purpose of this?

One assume it had to do with Sauron's great desire to find the One after he had lost it, and on the spirit plane it would have been much easier for him to discover such a wearer, perhaps even more so while Sauron himself still lacked a body. After all, everything that was Sauron's or made/accomplished with the One Ring would have become the property of a usurping Dark Lord had he/she been successful at that.

We certainly do know that Sauron himself didn't get invisible to the eyes of men while wearing the Ring (else Elendil would have fought against an invisible man, and Isildur would have cut the Ring off an invisible corpse). Not to mention that wearing the Ring made Sauron appear much more powerful and terrible than he already looked under normal conditions.

We also know that the Nine could make the wearer invisible or make invisible things visible but in their cases, too, they wouldn't have used the 'invisibility feature' not all that often. They wanted to have power over their fellow men, after all. Sometimes they certainly also wanted to sneak around and uncover secrets like Gollum, but most of the time they certainly wanted to be seen as great and powerful people.

Now, the idea is that this invisibility/spirit world feature is only relevant when Men/Dwarves (and perhaps Sindar) wear those rings. The Noldor exist and see on both planes, so any Noldo smith from Eregion forging and later wearing one of the Nine or Seven wouldn't have been invisible to his peers the way Frodo and Bilbo was for theirs (proven by the way Glorfindel looks in Frodo's eyes when he sees him while wearing the One).

So the rings do just alter or add to or sharpen the perception of wearers who are naturally not able to see *everything*. But that is different, I think, from the status of the Nazgûl. They have been changed permanently, and might actually have become closer to 'lesser spirts' of eälar rank. After all, Tolkien's thoughts about the witch-kinig indicate that he wasn't really destroyed by Merry and Éowyn, suggesting that he could have returned eventually had the One Ring not been destroyed soon after.

The history of the Third Age (and the end of the Second) also suggest that the power of the Nazgûl is greatly intertwined with the power of Sauron himself. After he is defeated they 'go into the shadows'. And while Sauron hides in Dol Guldur for about a millennium or more they also seem to grow in power - at least the witch-king is. But when Sauron retreats into the East after Gandalf pays him a visit the Nazgûl suddenly become inactive again - despite the fact that they just recently conquered Minas Ithil and might have been able to press their advantage then and there and destroy Gondor just as the witch-king had destroyed Arthedain. Presumably Sauron's original plan was to do just that but he wasn't ready yet to face Gandalf and thus he had to postpone the entire plan.

We also know that Sauron took the Nine Rings back from the Nazgûl so his direct control/connection to them in the Third Age (after he had taken the rings back, at least) would have worked on the basis of transferring power and orders via the rings. I guess this was a more difficult process then using the One for the same kind of thing, but still effective enough.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I think it's pretty clear that the Nazgul were permanently invisible, including their "original" clothing/armor etc (which Frodo could perceive on Weathertop and at the Ford); the black cloaks (donned of course after "fading" and Sauron's reclamation of their Rings) gave visibility to their forms which were unseen but not incorporeal.

(In an early, rejected draft for the scene at Maggot's house, T appears to be saying that if one put on the Ring and then picked up an object, that object would remain visible since it wasn't in the ringbearer's possession when he flipped the "engage invisibility" switch.)

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I think it's pretty clear that the Nazgul were permanently invisible, including their "original" clothing/armor etc (which Frodo could perceive on Weathertop and at the Ford); the black cloaks (donned of course after "fading" and Sauron's reclamation of their Rings) gave visibility to their forms which were unseen but not incorporeal.

I'm not sure we have to interpret Frodo's perceptions of the Nazgûl as 'the literal truth'. Granted, during the writing of 'The Lord of the Rings' Tolkien might perhaps envisioned the Ringwraiths as 'invisible men' but Frodo's perception could just as well be remnants of the self-images of the Nazgûl how they saw themselves or wanted to be seen by those who could perceive them as they were.

Sort of similar to the images and impression faded Elves whose bodies had been completely consumed would eventually be able to project to those mortals they would want to come into contact with. Such self-images of the Ringwraiths would, of course, also include clothes, crowns, and whatever else they thought had been important to them in life.

But this doesn't necessarily mean all that stuff was actually *there*.

It is quite clear that the Nazgûl could be harmed by conventional human weaponry but how exactly that worked is unclear. One guesses that part of that has to do with them continuing to interact with 'the physical world' but another great part have to to with the magic imbued in Merry's blade as well as the psychological aspect of the whole thing. The witch-king most likely did really think getting hit by a sword in the middle of his 'face' should get him killed. And thus it did. Or rather it greatly weakened him.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

I'm not sure we have to interpret Frodo's perceptions of the Nazgûl as 'the literal truth'. Granted, during the writing of 'The Lord of the Rings' Tolkien might perhaps envisioned the Ringwraiths as 'invisible men' but Frodo's perception could just as well be remnants of the self-images of the Nazgûl how they saw themselves or wanted to be seen by those who could perceive them as they were.

Sort of similar to the images and impression faded Elves whose bodies had been completely consumed would eventually be able to project to those mortals they would want to come into contact with. Such self-images of the Ringwraiths would, of course, also include clothes, crowns, and whatever else they thought had been important to them in life.

But this doesn't necessarily mean all that stuff was actually *there*.

It is quite clear that the Nazgûl could be harmed by conventional human weaponry but how exactly that worked is unclear. One guesses that part of that has to do with them continuing to interact with 'the physical world' but another great part have to to with the magic imbued in Merry's blade as well as the psychological aspect of the whole thing. The witch-king most likely did really think getting hit by a sword in the middle of his 'face' should get him killed. And thus it did. Or rather it greatly weakened him.

I am not sure the witch-king did think being hit by a normal blade would kill him.

I think we have to look back at weathertop to the reaction of the Nazgul when Frodo draws his blade. Two of the Nazgul actually stop and don't make a move for him. Only the Witch King has the courage to still go forward.

I am far from convinced that normal, weapons would harm the Nazgul anymore than they would harm a Balrog.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I am far from convinced that normal, weapons would harm the Nazgul anymore than they would harm a Balrog.

I think it very likely Éowyn had an ordinary sword.

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I am not sure the witch-king did think being hit by a normal blade would kill him.

I think we have to look back at weathertop to the reaction of the Nazgul when Frodo draws his blade. Two of the Nazgul actually stop and don't make a move for him. Only the Witch King has the courage to still go forward.

I am far from convinced that normal, weapons would harm the Nazgul anymore than they would harm a Balrog.

Well, even Balrogs, Sauron, and Morgoth himself could be harmed by 'normal weapons' if we accept that Elvish (or dwarfish) weapons were also, in a sense, 'normal'.

They were, after all, made by the Eruhíni and not the Valar or Maiar.

Nobody would be claiming weapons like Ringil, Narsil, Aeglos, Glamdring, etc. are playing in the same league as Éowyn's steel, but they would, most likely, not be in the same categories as weapons/artifacts created by the Valar/Maiar.

But we don't really know what the strength of those special weapons was when they were used against a Balrog, Sauron, or a Nazgûl. The touch/words of the Nazgûl (and Sauron) could destroy steel but does this in itself prove that these creatures are also impervious to common steel?

We don't know that. I'm pretty sure Merry's Dúnadan blade dealt the Witch-king a terrible wound, but the killing blow came from Éowyn's sword - or rather the blow who destroy his shape/appearance until such time as Sauron would restore him/he would recover.

It is not just the letter footnote which suggests the Witch-king survived it is also the curious phrasing JRRT uses when he describes that the cry of the Witch-king would never be heard again in that age - which was essentially nearly over. If he had been completely destroyed at this point (or the authors of the Red Book had believed he was dead) then one would expect them to say something like 'his cry was never heard on this earth again'.