TIG XCIV– WHere the Stars Are Strange (Game thread)

[Pomegranate]

Actually, Nog was the first one to say anything in any ways questioning about me:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Pomegranate: I'm more or less agreeing with the majority that she looks both sharp and well, although I suspected her strong language in her first posts on my Bom-lynch -issue (or how she handled Legate: I think I've never seen Legate as explanational than there ). Seeing that she voted Legate (whom I tend to trust somewhat) sure makes me wonder what did it mean when she said he answered her questions "fairly well" - and yet merited a vote. Also she talks of two votes for Eönwë which is either incorrect or then I have missed something; or that we should look at Legate, Eönwë (sic!) and Lommy while the person voting Eönwë is Greenie! (I'm really thinking I'm missing something here)

not that sure what that says to everyone about me, but when for once someone says something else than "she seems sharp", I remember it :P

[Eönwë]

Ok, so it's about time to reveal who the Ordo is.

This will probably shock most of you, but the answer is... Inzil!




So, my picks:

Nigh1 1- Nogrod (Wolf)
Night 2 - Inzil (Ordo)
Night 3 - G55 (Ranger)


edit: x-ed with Sally.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Ok, so it's about time to reveal who the Ordo is.

This will probably shock most of you, but the answer is... Inzil!




So, my picks:

Nigh1 1- Nogrod (Wolf)
Night 2 - Inzil (Ordo)
Night 3 - G55 (Ranger)

I thought so. You'd suspected me pretty strongly on Day 1. Then on Day 2, you dismissed me as a threat. When you revealed, it made sense. That's the reason I was so quick to trust you.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Ok, so it's about time to reveal who the Ordo is.

This will probably shock most of you, but the answer is... Inzil!

Thank you, that simplifies things.

But tell me one thing: if you already dreamed Nog on Night 1 and knew from the beginning that he was a wolf, why on Earth did you join his and Shasta's "lynch Bom" initiative?

I fully understand that you didn't attack him on Day 1, but to actually vote with a known wolf against an unknown?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

But tell me one thing: if you already dreamed Nog on Night 1 and knew from the beginning that he was a wolf, why on Earth did you join his and Shasta's "lynch Bom" initiative?

I didn't get a chance to properly read the thread before voting, so I didn't realise it originated at Nog. That's why when I saw it, and saw how easily it caught the village, I felt I had to attack him before he could cause any more damage, which was probably a bit of a (read: very much a) rash decision.

[Eönwë]

Boromir88 - I don't know. Something about him seems a bit off, but he seems to speak sense. But isn't he more vocal usually? Why is he so quiet?

Sally - At first I was leaning guilty, now I'm leaning innocent. She hasn't posted enough. It's more recappy like Shasta did on Day 1, which isn't really a good measure of good or bad.

Shasta - Crazy. About as crazy as Legate. And he worries me.

Pomegranate - I still find her sharp and innocent.

A Little Green - She is far too deep under my radar. So she worries me.

Pitchwife - I've been flip-flopping on him the whole game. At first he seemed dark and evil, then good, and now I'm uncertain again.

Lottie - The only reason I don't have a strong feeling of her innocence is her lack of posts. And that's a big reason, because she's usually pretty vocal.

Inziladun- Obviously, he's innocent.

Lommy - If Legate turns out to be evil, she needs to be re-evaluated, because she would seem pretty bad in that case. If not, I don't know.

Legate of Amon Lanc - Weird, crazy, evil. Maybe. Some of his most recent posts have started to look relatively genuine, which worries me. But I think he's done enough to condemn him.


So basically, now I suspect everyone except for Zil and Pom, and Lottie to a lesser extent.

[Eönwë]

When that I was and a little tiny boy,
With hey, ho, the wind and the sun,
A foolish thing was but a toy,
For the sun it burneth every day.
But when I came to Harad's lands,
With hey, ho, the the wind and the sun
'Gainst Northern spies we made our bands,
For the sun it burneth every day.
But when I revealed where my heart does lie,
With hey, ho, the wind and the sun.
I could see that I was soon to die,
For the sun it burneth every day.
A great while ago the world begun,
With hey, ho, the wind and the sun,
But that's all one, my time is done,
And we'll strive for Sauron every day.

[Nerwen]

Deadline. No more posting.

Edit: Legate, of course, has been lynched by eight votes to three. Narration to follow.

[Eönwë]

I feel myself physically falling asleep at my computer (and I want to wake up aerlier so that I can talk more in the time before the DL, so here are a few final observations for now:

-I've looked over Lottie's posts. Their actual content seems innocent, but she seems way too quiet for normal Lottie, so I'm not sure what to think about that.

-The fact that Zil is innocent is the reason I was looking at Boro. I mean, the hint seems to pretty explicitly say that Inzil was the hunting target, and the fact that Nog tried to shift it to Boro seems quite bad.

-Still not sure what I think about the Shasta vs Legate thing toDay.



Of course, my main suspicion lies with Legate, but to a lesser extent, I also suspect Shasta, and there're also Boro, Lommy and Pitch who seem to be hanging around in my mind as possibly evil.

Obviously, Zil is good, and I still think Pom looks good. Lommy's more recent posts look quite good, but overall, she still seems kinda suspicious to me.

I still have no idea what to do with Sally or Greenie. I will look at them when I get back.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

not that sure what that says to everyone about me, but when for once someone says something else than "she seems sharp", I remember it :P

You might not be able to fully experience a Downsian WW game until you've had a good, passionate row with me, but honestly, you need to start looking 20 times more suspicious for that to happen. Until then, you're going to be on my "Smart. Sharp player. Her, I like." list. It's probably a terribly boring list to be on, but you'll be on it until I actually see "Not only is she all that, but she's evil too. Her, I like, but keep a closer eye on!"

Originally Posted by Inzil

I don't know about Boro. He feels less "natural" for him toDay than he did yesterDay. I'm used to an innocent Boro being a cunning, bold wolf-hunter and I really haven't seen that.

Maybe if I actually had some gift in this game, I would see your point about not being myself. But really, I know nothing more than any other non-spy or seer. All I can do here is if I see it, call bs on someone and hopefully not do something disastrous like lynching the seer. If I can manage that, I think I've done the best I can, you lot...expect too much from me.

But I do realize I've been rubbish as far as giving my clear thoughts about today/lynching Nog/Ranger killed. It's nothing you're missing though, when it's essentially "I would not in the least bit have a problem with lynching Legate and/or* Shasta today."

*Yes, and/or, because I think there's been enough concentration on the two of them, for me...I've had enough Legate/Shasta in one sitting. I would propose orchestrating double-lynch, if not for the very fact that all of you are flippin' mad today and it's making me mental. So, attempting to put together a double-lynch would drive me more bonkers than what it would actually be worth.

I'm well aware there are more spies than just Legate a/o Shasta, but I am perhaps the worst multi-tasker you'll ever know. Give me one thing to do. I'll execute it and then move on to the next thing. Asking me to jumble all these ideas of a Legate-Shasta-Pitch, Shasta-Lommy-Greenie, Legate-sally-Lommy spy combinations is a processing overload for me. So unless you want my brain to explode, let me go about my business one step at a time. Starting with either Legate or Shasta today. Comprende?

Edit: crossed with everyone since Pom's that I quoted

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

-The fact that Zil is innocent is the reason I was looking at Boro. I mean, the hint seems to pretty explicitly say that Inzil was the hunting target, and the fact that Nog tried to shift it to Boro seems quite bad.

Interesting. It would, but does the hint really explicitely say that it is Inzil? I am still not getting the whole hint business...

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I thought so. You'd suspected me pretty strongly on Day 1. Then on Day 2, you dismissed me as a threat. When you revealed, it made sense. That's the reason I was so quick to trust you.

And I owe you apologies for the really strong suspicion, and for calling you weird, although... well, there was something weird about your behavior. But well, happens.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

*Yes, and/or, because I think there's been enough concentration on the two of them, for me...I've had enough Legate/Shasta in one sitting. I would propose orchestrating double-lynch, if not for the very fact that all of you are flippin' mad today and it's making me mental. So, attempting to put together a double-lynch would drive me more bonkers than what it would actually be worth.

No, please, NO. Okay, if Shasta is a Wolf, it would be better, but... hmm. Now I am thinking (since most people don't trust me much and I might be lynched anyway) whether not to try it and in case Shasta turns out innocent, totally lynch Boro for orchestrating such a massacre of innocents. I am only not sure if it is worth it. Two deaths are really a lot (if it turned out we both were innocent). I mean, if I knew for sure that Shasta was a Wolf, I'd be willing to even go and sacrifice myself along with him (for the sake of more clarity in the village). But despite all my suspicion of him, I can't be sure, of course. And I really hate double-lynches.

Also, anyway, if we really did it, it doesn't mean letting Boro off the hook. Quite the opposite. I mean, such a lynch, even if Shasta was a Wolf, would serve the Wolves just as well as us, number-wise. (If not even better. Somebody with better math skills should calculate that.)

I wonder what people think about it.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

No, please, NO. Okay, if Shasta is a Wolf, it would be better, but... hmm. Now I am thinking (since most people don't trust me much and I might be lynched anyway) whether not to try it and in case Shasta turns out innocent, totally lynch Boro for orchestrating such a massacre of innocents. I am only not sure if it is worth it. Two deaths are really a lot (if it turned out we both were innocent). I mean, if I knew for sure that Shasta was a Wolf, I'd be willing to even go and sacrifice myself along with him (for the sake of more clarity in the village). But despite all my suspicion of him, I can't be sure, of course. And I really hate double-lynches.

And relax. I wasn't being serious with that double lynch, but expressing my annoyance at both of you, and overall annoyance at this "Legate-Lottie-Shasta" "Lommy-sally-Shasta" spy-trifecta chatter today. Annoyed to the point where, at this time I couldn't care less if either you or Shasta were lynched, therefor you could both go. Give a few hours to have some hot chocolate, watch some guilty pleasure/trash and I'll be significantly less annoyed.

[Loslote]

I've got to vote early, so I'll go ahead and

++Legate

For the reasons stated in my earlier post, especially his reaction to Steve's reveal. Good lynching, everyone!

[Inziladun]

Smilies removed. This is not a comprehensive "everything he said" list, just some things that stood out.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

so I think it's a bit strange that Legate continues going after Inzil with a point that he specifically mentioned wasn't a point against Inzil.

Casts a little suspicion onto Legate.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Nogrod's #23 is a long, well-written post that doesn't really say much. For one, it's another "hate on random votes" post, and for another, it's his thoughts on the Acolyte. All well and good, but it seems he's replying to something Legate was using against Inzil at the time, which doesn't really fit.

A small point against Nog.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

And in a bit of a turnaround, Inzil's #24 is another answer to Legate that's basically been the same as his previous answers. Could be a case of "talking too much yet saying nothing", but I still tend to think Legate is the fishier of the two.

Ok, so in the Acolyte debate of Legate and I he finds Legate "fishier" there.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

In #29, Inzil mentions that Rikae agrees with him and then doesn't like the emptiness of his posts, which looks like an opportunistic kind of "hey, look, that's suspicious" move - except in the post he quotes, Rikae says she agrees with Legate, not Inzil. Interesting.

Says I was "opportunistic" when I pointed out what I thought was a contradiction on Rikae's part.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

...What? You just got through basically reprimanding Inzil for discussion that doesn't accomplish anything, and now you're giving him a license to continue? That's.... awkward, Steve, very awkward indeed.

Scolds Eönwë for further questioning about the Acolyte business.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Pitch is now the second person to basically say 'Yeah, Legate had a good point on Inzil' (Greenie was the first.) And that bothers me, since Legate specifically said that what he was saying was "nothing against Zil". It's also worth noting that though Pitch apparently agrees with Legate's point, he hangs back a bit with "whenever I've suspected him because of it I've been wrong" - almost in a way that leaves him an out in case an Inzil lynch happens.

Brings some suspicion on Pitch. That's all from the same post.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

If you're talking about when she blew up at Rikae, I tend to disagree here (what? Shasta disagrees with Nogrod?) And I tend to disagree with Boro, too, when he mentioned that "that's typical G55." I'm almost certain I've never seen G55 explode like that, and the post she made after to clarify what she was saying (indeed, that she felt like she had to clarify at all) looks suspicious to me.

Also, the fact that it's Nogrod, of all people, defending what seems to be an emotional outburst is an immediate red flag.

Attacks Nog for defending G55.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Okay... Lottie's post was pretty obviously a joke to me, given that it's Lottie (and given the wink smiley.) So you're thinking it's Lottie, not Inzil who looks weird there? But I thought you were just thinking it was Inzil (see above)? If that's the case, then you look like you're scrambling to make the same evidence fit a different theory now that your first one's been debunked, if that makes sense. Right now, that looks bad.

This was against Lommy.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

In Legate's #68 (and, apparently, in his list from earlier, as I think that's where Eonwe got his quote), he apparently legitimately suspects Inzil? Which, then, looks a bit like a Legatewolf going "Hey, people bought that? Okay, let's go with it!"

More suspicion on Legate.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

...You're kidding. Who are you and what have you done with Nogrod?! That's so unlike what you'd normally say that I'm almost forced to look for a reason why you'd be protecting G55.

And more suspicion on Nog.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Well... in Inzil's post here -

- he pretty well answers that, in my opinion. So why mention it yet again? Legate, you do realize you've been doing basically the same thing as what you say Inzil's been doing, right?

Takes Legate to task about suspecting me for supposedly not answering him about the Acolyte deal.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Also, Inzil at #96 - all the talk about you apparently not just posting "empty posts" and you post something like this? Man...

This was the post he was talking about. I thought he was really reaching in calling that "empty".

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

He's explained himself twice. I find it interesting that you missed both instances, and I find it even more interesting that you're finding Inzil this suspicious right after A) he starts getting votes (Rikae's in particular) and B) he votes for you.

Doesn't like Eönwë's suspicions of me.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Leaning Very Innocent:
Shasta - Duh.

Leaning Innocent:
Boro - Two major reasons: one, I agree with him regarding G55; two, he's getting what seems to be a rather large amount of suspicion from people I'm currently suspicious of.

Rikae - I debated with myself for a bit before putting her here, instead of "No read", because she has been posting. It may be that her posts stick out less in my mind because they aren't gigantic walls of text; everything she's said thus far looks fairly ship-shape. I don't know that I agree with her vote, but she hasn't said anything that's made me think her overtly suspicious.

Pitch - Nothing Pitch has done today has really set off any alarm bells for me. Even though he's said a fair bit today, he almost went under the radar for me because I just remember him saying a fair bit without actually remembering much of the content - except when he argued a bit with Nogrod. I remember concentrating on that part especially.

Lottie - Like Boro, has been taking some heat from other people I find more suspicious. She's also said quite a bit that I happen to agree with. I don't find her suspicious at the moment.

Leaning Worse than Innocent, Better than Guilty:
Steve - Was tending to think him more innocent than not until his most recent post against Inzil. A lot about that post looks odd, especially the timing of it.

Greenie - Not a lot here to go on, but more than anyone in the "Not Leaning at All" category. I don't really agree with her vote.

Inzil - I'm not certain that he's an innocent. That said, there are some indicators that he was the target of a witchhunt today, for good or ill (I'm leaning ill, myself.)

Leaning Guilty:
G55 - I was fine with her until she exploded earlier. After that, I felt like her clarification of said explosion was basically used to make people more confident of her innocence ("A wolf wouldn't act like that," etc).

Lommy - I was on the same page with her regarding the Lottie/Inzil Case of the Ambiguous Posts until Inzil mentioned that he was talking about something completely different. I thought that was the end of it until Lommy began talking about ways that that made Lottie look bad in a way that almost looked like she was looking for support.

Nogrod - I admit, most of the reason he's in this category is his apparent connection to G55, whom I also find suspicious. His reaction to and subsequent defense of her was so incredibly counter to normal Nogrod that I just can't see that being his real thoughts on the matter.

Legate - The apparent leader of what has looked to me like a witchhunt on Inzil. Apparently missed it the first time Inzil explained himself, and hasn't posted since he explained it the second time. Still, the fact that he mentioned in the beginning that what he was saying wasn't a point against Inzil, and didn't change his mind until a fair number of people seemed to share his ideas, looks bad to me.

Not Leaning at All:
Sally
Pomegranate
Eruhen
Bom


I will likely end up voting someone in the "Guilty" category today.

Ok, so he has me in the middle category with Steve, and both Nog and Legate in the worst section.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I'll comment on the rest momentarily, but I want to get this thought out there as quickly as possible to give everyone time to consider - I would, personally, be not at all averse to lynching Bom. Think about it for a second - why, even beyond Legate's thought (which is currently the prevailing mood, sad as it is to say), I can nearly guarantee that later, down the road, someone will say "man I wish we could lynch Bom, but we can't now, it's too late in the game." Because, as I recall, Bom does this quite a bit, and people say exactly what has been said thus far - that is, chastising him for it but not really doing anything about it. Because the general opinion is either "oh that's just Bom" or "a wolf wouldn't do that, oh well."

So if people want to lynch Bom, I'm all for it. It's about time our threat of "participate or face a lynch" actually had some bite to it.

Out of nowhere decides lynching Bom is a good option. As I think I said before, I can see an innocent Shasta doing this, but it was a bad idea, and good cover for a baddie.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

It looks odd that it's only after you start getting suspected and voted that you suddenly suspect Inzil as much as you did in that post. If you just woke up to find that, it's less odd (I honestly have no idea what timezone you're in, haha.)


That's precisely the point!


That's fair. But I'm not sure you realize that Lottie does that all the time. Again, that's getting into playstyle differences. But it's a point regardless.


That line has since been explained. See Lommy and Zil's conversation.

And another point I was trying to make. Why should this kind of behavior be acceptable from anyone, no matter who? And you can "strongly discourage" all you like - it's not going to change anything. It never has.


No, I understood that. I was just wondering if you saw that every time Inzil answered with the same answer, you responded again with the same question.


Uh-huh, and that leads back to the "witchhunt" I was mentioning earlier. Just what explanation would have satisfied you? Because it looks to me like you were prepared to be dissatisfied by anything Inzil said.

He defends me from Legate and Eönwë. Thinks I'm the would-be victim of a "witch hunt".

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

No, it'd be a wake-up call. No one should be allowed to slip through without participating and voting. People can say "oh, well, they didn't deserve to win" all they like when someone who just floats through the game ends up living to the end (because if they're wolves no one wants to lynch them because of lack of evidence and if they're innocent the wolves won't kill them because they're not doing anything) - it doesn't change the facts that they won, and we let them by allowing them to do so.

Defends his wanting to lynch Bom.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Well, with Lommy looking a little better now that I know where she was coming from re: Lottie, I'm going to put my money (or in this case, vote) where my mouth is.

++Bom

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

You're right, Lommy, it is a little harsh. However, I, personally, feel like it's something that has to happen at least once, or nothing will ever change.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

It's mean regardless of what I am. I know that. And I'm sure I'll change my tune once Bom proves that he's capable of actually participating in a game he signs up for. That doesn't really change anything.

Has no apparent regrets about voting for Bom. This seems fairly in character for an innocent Shasta.

Hmm. I don't know. He certainly wasn't shy about pointing accusations at people. then again, restraint really isn't Shasta's style.

Just on the basis on Day 1, I'd be inclined to think him innocent, or at least not a Spy.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Note - for this game it's likely I'll only be active during the latter half of the Day, as Sally said - the DL is 6 am my time, so yeah.

In any case, I'll comment on the most recent happenings real fast before I go back and do a post-by-post commentary.

Eonwe - Seer
Nog - Wolf
Inzil - Acolyte

Seriously? Guys. Look at the Eruhen kill. It's pretty clear at this point that the Acolyte, if not a traditional werebear, at least has the power to kill by himself (I say him because Nog being a wolf doesn't mean his points about Inzil being the Acolyte aren't valid - I've thought so myself since yesterday, as did Rikae apparently).

Nog is a wolf. Fine. Lynch him tomorrow. Lynching one wolf out of four isn't going to have any short-term effects - if we lynch Inzil (who clearly, at this point, doesn't have the best interests of the village in mind), we drop the number of kills per night to one.

++Inzil

After Steve's reveal, Shasta votes for me, saying he thought I was the Acolyte since the previous Day. He's willing to vote for me over a probable Spy Day 2, yet Day 1 he had me in his "middle" category of suspicion and voted for Bom. He said I might be the target of a witch hunt then. I have a serious problem with this inconsistency. It looks like a possible attempt by a ShastaSpy to save a mate.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

We know it kills people. I think that's quite enough.

Again, we don't know what the Acolyte does.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

However, I didn't even consider a double-lynch idea. That would solve the conundrum quite nicely. Who's left to vote? Can we pull it off?

Thinks now about a double lynch of me and Nog. What really made me suspicious about Shasta wanting to get me was that he had no certainty I was the Acolyte, or whether the Acolyte was definitely evil.

It doesn't make sense to me still how an innocent could consider the Acolyte more worthy of killing than a wolf, even if it were certain who the Acolyte was.

This makes Shasta look evil.

[Loslote]

I was feeling so good about Pom...but I'm beginning to wonder. She's been playing with a bit of a cautious hand, not getting into much drama, and basically staying in the shadows while seeming to be sharp and helpful. Also...

Originally Posted by Boromir88

You might not be able to fully experience a Downsian WW game until you've had a good, passionate row with me, but honestly, you need to start looking 20 times more suspicious for that to happen. Until then, you're going to be on my "Smart. Sharp player. Her, I like." list. It's probably a terribly boring list to be on, but you'll be on it until I actually see "Not only is she all that, but she's evil too. Her, I like, but keep a closer eye on!"

This post of Boro's makes me think that not only would Pom and Nog, as Lommy said, be likely packmates, but so would Pom and Boro. In that post, Boro's basically writing Pom off as innocent, and implying that an evil Pom would happen in the future - that is, not this game.

EDIT: xed with Shasta

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Loslote

In that post, Boro's basically writing Pom off as innocent, and implying that an evil Pom would happen in the future - that is, not this game.

I don't see why "in the future" has to mean "not in this game", unless you decide to read it so; this is a constructed argument.

I must admit I had more or less forgotten about Lottie for the last two Days (sorry dear), but I don't like this.