TIG XCIV– WHere the Stars Are Strange (Game thread)

[Eönwë]

Popping in for a second:

What does everyone think about me revealing the Ordo? When is the right time?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Eonwe wasn't that suspected

Yes he was - skimming through yesterDay's posts, Zil, Legate, Greenie, Lommy, sally and myself all suspected him or had bad feelings about him at some point or the other; so it's understandable he felt under enough pressure to reveal, especially with a wolf in his bag. And looking at the conspiracy theories Nog improvised on the spot in his defense yesterDay, there's no telling what he might have come up with if given another Night to confer with his packmates. Maybe I'm overestimating the danger, but I wouldn't have wanted to risk it.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

But don't you see that your reluctance to discuss the Acolyte could make people wonder whether you had any personal stakes in the matter? And your complete silence when Rikae challenged you on it could be seen as telling in its own way.

Maybe you aren't in fact the Acolyte, but don't you see how somebody could get the idea?

I guess you're right. I still don't see any reason to be fixated on the Acolyte instead of the Spies, though.

Originally Posted by Loslote

The way I see it, there are only four reasons why the Acolyte killed Eruhen.

Option A: The Acolyte is a were-bear and kills every Night. This was proved false by the lack of a kill last Night.

Option B1: The Acolyte is a type of were-bear that kills every so often and wants the village (and spies) to all die. This is possible, and the only possible option where the Acolyte is definitively evil.

Option B2: The Acolyte still kills every so often, but xe doesn't necessarily want the village to all die. Xe killed Eruhen because xe thought Eruhen was a spy, and used his "every so often" kill to take out a potential spy, but was mistaken.

Option C: The Acolyte took the role of the person xe killed, and is now an ordo.

I won't go so far as to say it's more likely that the Acolyte isn't necessarily on our side, but it's not impossible, so I'm definitely not comfortable with writing the Acolyte off as evil as a matter of course.

Maybe the Acolyte, being a "follower" or "learner" may make Option C the most likely, but it's still only speculation.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

What does everyone think about me revealing the Ordo? When is the right time?

I'd say wait until the Day's half over, at least. People need to be observed without having that out just yet.

x/d with Pitch

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Subtle? I thought I was being quite blatant. I don't trust the Acolyte, and I don't think anyone else should. Good try, Boro.

Subtle was a bad way of wording it.

I meant Nog was trying to scare us into not voting for him, by making some baseless ranting about the Acolyte being clearly aligned with the wolves. And therefor he was lynched, the Acolyte would attach to the 4 wolves and win the next day. Nog was using this to try to defend his innocence, but it's a completely irrational argument because if Nog was innocent there would be no way of knowing the Acolyte's allegiance.

Let me ask you, Shasta, if you are innocent. And say someone revealed as the seer you were a wolf. Obviously, you would know this person was lying. Would your reaction be to lynch the person who is obviously lying (and therefor must be a wolf), or argue some cracked up case about how the acolyte is clearly on the wolf-team and we will all lose if you're lynched? Surely you can see to try to scare us "Don't lynch me because you will die tomorrow" is extremely desperate.

And another thing. Your post that was basically 'you just look so suspicious Nog' was way more over-the-top than anything I've said thus far. The similarity between that and how I remember Glirdan being was too uncanny for me not to mention it. You're really reaching incredibly far here.

Sure. I was heavy handed in my Nog accusations yesterday, but you have to know that one must be over-the-top when dealing with Nog. No offense meant to him, but seriously, if you're going to have such a big ego shout "IT'S A DUO-TRIPLE-WOLF CONSPIRACY TO LYNCH ME LAST NIGHT!!" than you can't cry foul when I call bull crap on you. Seriously, I was reading Nog's reactions after Eonwe's initial case and kept shaking my head thinking "what makes you soooo important Nog that there is a massive pre-planned wolf strategy to push and get you lynched during?" Because, seriously, ask yourself. If you're a wolf, and you want to get rid of someone that desperately, you just night-kill the person. Really, wolves do not care who gets lynched as long as it's not one of them. So talk about an inflated ego when trying to make it seem like there is some wolf-pack conspiracy to get YOU above everyone else lynched.

For a moment, leave "Nog being Nog" out of it. And just look at his posts (even before Eonwe's reveal, but especially after too).

In 199. He launched some big duo-wolf conspiracy that G55 and Eonwe pre-planned a "lynch Nog" attack against him. Oh, sure he tried to make it look reasonable by saying stuff about only an "impatient soul" would believe this to be true. Yet, he spent 3 paragraphs essentially arguing, "this duo-wolf attack against me I don't believe it, but it soo tempting and compelling...oh but I don't believe it of course...oh but it's so tempting."

Now. If someone's reaction to suspicion is "Pity me, it's a conspiracy against me!" Would you say, looks more wolvy or innocent?

And in the posts of someone trying to defend him/herself, if he/she slings mud, would you say that looks more wolvy or innocent?. Don't try tell me Nog wasn't slinging mud, with this one:

I mean you who complain about Bom's lynch seem to forget that he could have been a wolf. Or you knew already he wasn't and then as wolves rant on us others who didn't know from supposed "moral-highground". *coughPitchieCough*

Come on. Talk about a cheap accusation, trying to use a "moral-highground" argument and wrap Pitch's name in cough. Oh, yes, real innocent that baselessly made junk accusation was

And if a person's reaction to anyone suspecting them is "they're all wolves! All the wolves are launching a plan to bring me down"...again look more wolvy or innocent?

I really don't mean to be a prick about this, but you honestly can't tell me Nog was being reasonable yesterday. The best way for me to deal with it is to call bull crap when I see it, and fight fire with fire. It's abrasive, it's combative, if you're innocent I will apologize to you afterward, if not I think you deserve it. Can't take the heat, get out of my kitchen.

Originally Posted by Shasta

Now I'm really getting annoyed. Apparently everything I say or do is going to be suspicious to someone. Also, Pitch, this is crap. Eonwe wasn't that suspected, there was no reason for an Eonwe-wolf to self-destruct by fake-revealing on D2.

Hogwash. After Eonwe's post going after Nog, both Greenie and Legate immediately commented that Eonwe looked suspicious because he looked "evil" in the way he was painting Nog black. Greenie voted for him. Nog ran with that and pretty much parrotted Legate and Greenie. And I also believe Lommy (before Eonwe's reveal) was siding more with Nog being innocent than Eonwe, based on Eonwe's strongly-worded post suspecting Nog. So. Yeah. That's more bull-pucky.

Edit: crossed since Shasta's post 318

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I guess you're right. I still don't see any reason to be fixated on the Acolyte instead of the Spies, though.

Aye, and that's what I'm trying to get at, just because I don't know what side the Acolyte's on, or really what the Acolyte's powers are, doesn't mean we have to "find acolyte and lynch him NOW" rampage.

It's very possible Nog and the wolves are right, but there's certainly no reason to believe it, let alone argue that it's "clear and obvious the Acolyte's bad." So, everyone, I'm serious here, who has the most to benefit from trying to redirect our lynch focus onto the acolyte? Come on. Say it all with me.

[satansaloser2005]

Ahem. Did anyone consider that the Acolyte may in fact be a Nightly killer who targeted Steve (or someone else) last Night, and that Galadriel protected him/her/it/your mother? Or, perhaps, the wolves targeted our dear departed lass Lad, and the Acolyte targeted Steve/whomever else.

I mean really. When wolves don't get a kill, we all immediately assume that the ranger was doing their job, but when we have an unknown probable killing role in our midst, we forget that possibility? I'm a bit disappointed.


Or, as they say in Limerick....

Why do none of you pause to think
That last Night there might be a link
Between Gal55
And Steve, who's alive
Despite the wolves' Nightly hijinx


EDIT: x'd since we were still on page 8 (hush, you lot, I've been busy)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Ahem. Did anyone consider that the Acolyte may in fact be a Nightly killer who targeted Steve (or someone else) last Night, and that Galadriel protected him/her/it/your mother? Or, perhaps, the wolves targeted our dear departed lass Lad, and the Acolyte targeted Steve/whomever else.

I mean really. When wolves don't get a kill, we all immediately assume that the ranger was doing their job, but when we have an unknown probable killing role in our midst, we forget that possibility? I'm a bit disappointed.

The narrative appears to support only one attempted and completed kill. I don't see any evidence two people were targeted.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Boro, your post is based entirely around the fact that you think I was saying Nog was being reasonable (thus implying that I was defending him.) If you look back, you'll see that I fully believed Eonwe that Nog was a wolf - I simply thought I would try and prevent someone I thought had killing powers from killing again. What's better, two kills per night or one? You're going far, far out of your way to misrepresent me here and I don't like it one bit.

And I'm not "fixated" on the Acolyte. There's no "rampage". I keep bringing up the subject because NO ONE ELSE WILL. Seriously, everyone but me thus far has basically said "oh well we don't know the Acolyte isn't playing for the good team" and has basically left it there and I think that's wrong. The Acolyte doesn't count for innocents or wolves in the tally - how likely is it the Acolyte can only win by himself? Answer: pretty likely.

But fine. If the only response I'm going to get is "Shasta's suspicious for talking about the Acolyte" then I'll drop the subject completely. I won't even say "told you so" when the Acolyte wins by themselves.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The narrative appears to support only one attempted and completed kill. I don't see any evidence two people were targeted.

The narrative for N1 appears to support that Eruhen was killed by someone, not modkilled.

Oh, right. My bad. Shutting up.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

And I'm not "fixated" on the Acolyte. There's no "rampage". I keep bringing up the subject because NO ONE ELSE WILL. Seriously, everyone but me thus far has basically said "oh well we don't know the Acolyte isn't playing for the good team" and has basically left it there and I think that's wrong. The Acolyte doesn't count for innocents or wolves in the tally - how likely is it the Acolyte can only win by himself? Answer: pretty likely.

But fine. If the only response I'm going to get is "Shasta's suspicious for talking about the Acolyte" then I'll drop the subject completely. I won't even say "told you so" when the Acolyte wins by themselves.

But you're doing more than talking about the Acolyte: you're advocating voting for an Acolyte suspect in lieu of seeking a Spy toDay.

If the Acolyte truly has no team allegiance at this point, xe's going to be a lot harder to find than the Spies. We have a lot more to go on where the latter are concerned. And they are the greater threat.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

The narrative for N1 appears to support that Eruhen was killed by someone, not modkilled.

I was talking about last Night.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

But you're doing more than talking about the Acolyte: you're advocating voting for an Acolyte suspect in lieu of seeking a Spy toDay.

If the Acolyte truly has no team allegiance at this point, xe's going to be a lot harder to find than the Spies. We have a lot more to go on where the latter are concerned. And they are the greater threat.

I'm aware of that. Which is why I'm still looking for spies/wolves. But I still think the Acolyte is a greater threat than people are making him out to be. I suppose it's a bit like the cobbler debate - do you lynch a known cobbler, or do you keep hunting for wolves?

I was talking about last Night.

I'm aware. I was being snarky and sarcastic. I apologize.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay - on general evaluation of what's happened toDay, I am growing steadily more suspicious of Shasta. It's not about his way of arguing, which is faulty in many ways (like many have already mentioned - e.g. the "Eonwe was not suspected yesterDay enough..." I can vouch for myself that I indeed had suspected him, and I recall there were many others) - that does not necessarily say anything about guilt; but mostly the fact that he had pushed for a second lynch going at the same point yesterDay with Steve, therefore threatening to threaten him (to make a double lynch).
Pitch also sums this up quite nicely from only slightly different angle:

Originally Posted by Pitch

That said, I must say I don't like Shasta's suggestion from yesterDay to lynch the putative Acolyte before Nog, because it would have left Nog's role, and thus the truth of Eönwë's dream, uncertain for another Day, giving the wolves time to concoct an emergency strategy, while risking to lynch an innocent instead. I can't see how that would have been helpful to anybody but the wolves.

With the arguing, it's not as much about the content, but the sort of stubborn form - or, in fact, there is also one of the argued-over issues: the Acolyte thing - still trying to make us convince that the Acolyte must be evil, which is not necessarily true by any means.

Not sure what to make of Boro, I am currently at loss about the whole subject, and he's incredibly wordy which makes it difficult to find any orientation. I still need to make up my mind about Inzil, what makes him better in my book is first his reaction to Eönwë - I think a Wolf would at least have tried whether he could not have been lynched (or mistrusted), the complete unquestioned trust wasn't also nothing special, of course - might have been that Inzil knew (as a Wolf) that Steve is innocent and thus knew to trust him... but then again also some of his latter posting does not look as bad. So I am not sure, sort of undecided about him currently.

Generally I agree with Pitch on a lot of things, only this (in regards to Inzil):

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

But don't you see that your reluctance to discuss the Acolyte could make people wonder whether you had any personal stakes in the matter? And your complete silence when Rikae challenged you on it could be seen as telling in its own way.

Maybe you aren't in fact the Acolyte, but don't you see how somebody could get the idea?

I think this is a bit of a stretch. If the question of Acolyte keeps being pushed on Zil (I don't recall even where exactly it started, but in any case, it hasn't left him since then), then of course it gets annoying and you don't want to talk about it. So this particular point... not really.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Now I'm really getting annoyed. Apparently everything I say or do is going to be suspicious to someone. Also, Pitch, this is crap. Eonwe wasn't that suspected, there was no reason for an Eonwe-wolf to self-destruct by fake-revealing on D2. Therefore, he was legit, his dream on Nog was legit, and at the time it was very likely (to me, apparently, but not to anyone else) that there was going to, again, be a second kill on N2, which I wanted to prevent. This bit about "wolves concocting an emergency strategy" is rubbish, as evidenced by the nine votes on Nog yesterday.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

The main reason it caught my eye, actually, is how Legate can post well-thought-out points like this and at the same time be as wildly off-kilter as he has been? My overall conclusion on this is while the point makes him look slightly better, the dichotomy makes him look worse.

Isn't it rather the sign of an innocent to have conflicting opinions about something? I mean, innocents, in contrary to some others, have no information whom to trust. I suspected Eönwë before, but I tried to post with the best intentions in mind, just as now. If you are following a certain pattern you set for yourself like a Wolf (e.g. "I will suspect person X, then I switch to person Y, then I will try to make the village lynch Z"), you usually post very "consistently" in the sense that all the time, the main intention sort of "behind" your behavior can be tracked as: "Yes, he wanted to lynch X." With innocent, the intention behind all the behavior should not be "He wanted to lynch X or Y", but "He wanted to do what was the best for the village from his current perspective." That's what I am doing. That's what I also often get suspected for.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Popping in for a second:

What does everyone think about me revealing the Ordo? When is the right time?

What I suggested previously: sometime late evening European time. Before you go to sleep, because then Americans will vote. Some people might vote earlier (Greenie often votes early, I have noticed), so might be even let's say in a couple of hours. Your call. I suggest letting post at least once most of the people first, but then whenever.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Maybe the Acolyte, being a "follower" or "learner" may make Option C the most likely, but it's still only speculation.

That option actually sounded very much likely to me. I'm quite willing to consider that as the real role of the Acolyte. Quite a lot, in fact. Because it makes perfect sense.

EDIT: x-ed with Sally and onwards

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Ahem. Did anyone consider that the Acolyte may in fact be a Nightly killer who targeted Steve (or someone else) last Night, and that Galadriel protected him/her/it/your mother? Or, perhaps, the wolves targeted our dear departed lass Lad, and the Acolyte targeted Steve/whomever else.

I mean really. When wolves don't get a kill, we all immediately assume that the ranger was doing their job, but when we have an unknown probable killing role in our midst, we forget that possibility? I'm a bit disappointed.

Sort of a stretch, I think (if I understood it correctly what you mean). I wouldn't overcombinate things that much. Aside from that, what I said at the end of the post above.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Boro, your post is based entirely around the fact that you think I was saying Nog was being reasonable (thus implying that I was defending him.) If you look back, you'll see that I fully believed Eonwe that Nog was a wolf - I simply thought I would try and prevent someone I thought had killing powers from killing again. What's better, two kills per night or one? You're going far, far out of your way to misrepresent me here and I don't like it one bit.

And I'm not "fixated" on the Acolyte. There's no "rampage". I keep bringing up the subject because NO ONE ELSE WILL. Seriously, everyone but me thus far has basically said "oh well we don't know the Acolyte isn't playing for the good team" and has basically left it there and I think that's wrong. The Acolyte doesn't count for innocents or wolves in the tally - how likely is it the Acolyte can only win by himself? Answer: pretty likely.

But fine. If the only response I'm going to get is "Shasta's suspicious for talking about the Acolyte" then I'll drop the subject completely. I won't even say "told you so" when the Acolyte wins by themselves.

I suppose it could be one of those difference of opinion/playing style moments. I just can't see why there should be so much worry created about an unknown role. And the fact that Nog did it yesterday put me "wolves are trying to make the acolyte the focus and lynch him/her." Sure, I may be hopefully assuming the acolyte is on our side, but that to me looks like a much safer assumption than your assumption that he/she is a dangerous threat.

If you're right about the acolyte though, we still have the wolves to deal with and there really isn't a reason to believe that the Acolyte gets to kill each night, so I'm not seeing why I should feel more of a threat from the acolyte than from the 3 remaining wolves.

Anyway, I'm at least going to take a break, because I see I might be wrong with assuming only wolves are trying to focus our attention on the acolyte.

Edit: crossed since Inzil's post 330

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Legate

but mostly the fact that he had pushed for a second lynch going at the same point yesterDay with Steve, therefore threatening to threaten him (to make a double lynch).

I already pointed out how much rubbish this point is. In fact, since I voted Inzil, I'd be very interested to hear how I supposedly threatened Eonwe yesterday.

I don't want to think I'm basically OMGUSing Legate here - I might be, certainly, but he's seemed completely (not a bit, not some, pretty much completely) off to me since the beginning.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I already pointed out how much rubbish this point is. In fact, since I voted Inzil, I'd be very interested to hear how I supposedly threatened Eonwe yesterday.

Maybe I did not word it very well this time - but you were offering ground for double-lynch in any case, be the other subject Eonwe or Zil. In any case, it would still not be good for the village - only leave the uncertainity for the future. And also (I don't know how exactly was the voting around that time you were proposing that, or when you voted), if there were still some Wolves left to vote after you, with enough numbers, they could still do a double-lynch in that way. That's of course probably unlikely, but the general point is that splitting the vote (especially for somebody completely random) was not exactly helpful in that situation.

I don't want to think I'm basically OMGUSing Legate here - I might be, certainly, but he's seemed completely (not a bit, not some, pretty much completely) off to me since the beginning.

How nice. I, on the other hand, thought initially you were pretty good.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Maybe I did not word it very well this time - but you were offering ground for double-lynch in any case, be the other subject Eonwe or Zil. In any case, it would still not be good for the village - only leave the uncertainity for the future. And also (I don't know how exactly was the voting around that time you were proposing that, or when you voted), if there were still some Wolves left to vote after you, with enough numbers, they could still do a double-lynch in that way. That's of course probably unlikely, but the general point is that splitting the vote (especially for somebody completely random) was not exactly helpful in that situation.


How nice. I, on the other hand, thought initially you were pretty good.

Wrong. I never said I wanted to lynch Eonwe, in fact I never mentioned him in the slightest. Why would I want to lynch the Seer, in any case? Yes, I mentioned that a double lynch of Inzil and Nog might be a good idea, after someone mentioned it (I'd originally forgotten about double lynches at all), but how would that have "left uncertainty"? Nog would have been just as dead. Your other point is still not very good - I already gave you the numbers to prove that even if it had been possible for the wolves to double-lynch Eonwe, they all would have been revealed after that and the game would be over! See, Legate, you keep trying to make this into a reason that I'm suspicious and it's just not working. That's what I mean about how completely off you are. I didn't mean to insult you or anything, if that's what you thought (as your last comment leads me to believe.)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Wrong. I never said I wanted to lynch Eonwe, in fact I never mentioned him in the slightest. Why would I want to lynch the Seer, in any case? Yes, I mentioned that a double lynch of Inzil and Nog might be a good idea, after someone mentioned it (I'd originally forgotten about double lynches at all), but how would that have "left uncertainty"? Nog would have been just as dead. Your other point is still not very good - I already gave you the numbers to prove that even if it had been possible for the wolves to double-lynch Eonwe, they all would have been revealed after that and the game would be over! See, Legate, you keep trying to make this into a reason that I'm suspicious and it's just not working. That's what I mean about how completely off you are. I didn't mean to insult you or anything, if that's what you thought (as your last comment leads me to believe.)

Not taking it as insult, never mind then. But okay, then tell me clearly: first you did not plan to make it double-lynch, then you did, so can you go over it once again - what exactly had you intended? Did you intend to make a double-lynch (of Zil and Nog), then? Why exactly, i.e. what good would it be? Also, how did you hope to achieve that? What if one got one more vote than the other? What would you think if only Nog was lynched? What would you think if only Zil was lynched? Had you considered those two possibilities at all? Answering shortly, briefly in points is fine, if I can ask you for that...

And anyway, yes, I am willing to see also something more - something else - from you to make me evaluate you better. E.g. if you list briefly whom do you currently suspect and why... or whom do you trust the most and why...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I sense the beginnings of a witchhunt, but fine, I'll answer.

Originally Posted by Legate

But okay, then tell me clearly: first you did not plan to make it double-lynch, then you did, so can you go over it once again, what did you intend?

I had originally forgotten about the fact that we could double lynch - I wanted Zil gone over Nog because I felt both were bad for the innocents, but killing Inzil would have dropped the nightkills from two to one (I still thought the Acolyte was going to kill the next night.) Then, after I voted, the idea of a double lynch was mentioned, which I thought was a fine idea - kill both with one lynch.

Sidenote, Legate - it was not going to be very easy to make a double-lynch all by my lonesome, as you're implying. I knew Nog had four or five votes by then and I knew no one else had voted Inzil, but I figured it was worth a shot, and if I didn't manage it then Nog would be lynched anyway and that'd be one baddie down.

Did you intend to make a double-lynch (of Zil and Nog), then?

Had it been possible, yes. Once Lommy voted right after me, though, I didn't really think it was possible. Still, since there wasn't a vote tally up and I wasn't sure how many more votes were coming in, I felt like there was still a chance and I urged people to consider it.

Why exactly, i.e. what good would it be?

Seriously? We'd be getting rid of a wolf and the Acolyte, who I thought (and still think) was dangerous.

Also, how did you hope to achieve that?

If you're asking me this, then you're implying there wasn't a way to achieve that, which means your point about me endangering Eonwe, is, like I said, pretty leaky. That said, I'll answer - it would have required the cooperation of the people after me to vote; like I said, once Lommy voted I figured the chances were slim, but there was no harm in trying.

What if one got one more vote than the other? What would you think if only Nog was lynched? What would you think if only Zil was lynched? Had you considered those two possibilities at all?

What about it? In my view, either way we were getting rid of someone who was a danger to the village. If Nog was lynched, fine - we'd gotten rid of a wolf. If Zil went instead, that was fine too - that'd be the end of the Acolyte and we could lynch Nog the next day; if Eonwe had managed to find another wolf with his dream, we could just double-lynch them, so we weren't even losing any time.

Who do I suspect? You, currently. Boro, because I think he was bussing Nog. Inzil I still suspect of Acolyte-ism, but I don't think he's a wolf, unless his "lynch me instead of Eonwe" yesterday was just a very clever wolf-front. I still have some suspicions of Lommy as well.

[A Little Green]

A question that isn't even rhetorical but a serious one I'd like an answer for: why the blazes is everyone discussing the flipping acolyte? Has everyone forgotten we have wolves to catch? A dead wolf whose relationships with people we could go through? Yes, we shouldn't forget about the acolyte, but debating about her/him to this extent makes no sense. Not when we really have more substantial food for thought and discussion.

/rant

I'm going to continue the vote analysis I started earlier. Back soon.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

If you're asking me this, then you're implying there wasn't a way to achieve that, which means your point about me endangering Eonwe, is, like I said, pretty leaky. That said, I'll answer - it would have required the cooperation of the people after me to vote; like I said, once Lommy voted I figured the chances were slim, but there was no harm in trying.

Wait a second and stop presuming. I was asking exactly and only what I had asked - because it is NOT easy to achieve a double-lynch. I assumed there WAS a way to achieve that according to you, otherwise you wouldn't have proposed it, obviously. Therefore, I wanted to hear about it.

These were only questions, and completely "freely" phrased - a mere civilized way to ask you about something. Yet you are answering with rather defensive and sort of jumpy way at some moments. In contrary to what you say, I have *no* intention to lynch you for the sake of itself. But at least on first sight, I can't help to think you are making stuff up, or clutching to some pre-made points of your own.

Originally Posted by Shasta

I had originally forgotten about the fact that we could double lynch - I wanted Zil gone over Nog because I felt both were bad for the innocents, but killing Inzil would have dropped the nightkills from two to one (I still thought the Acolyte was going to kill the next night.) Then, after I voted, the idea of a double lynch was mentioned, which I thought was a fine idea - kill both with one lynch.

This in particular sounds rather fabricated. And the whole Acolyte thing of yours is just weird - I mean, if you are innocent, then I suggest checking whether you aren't simply paranoid. I understand it might be good to talk about the Acolyte if nobody seems to worry about it, but nowhere was written that Acolyte is evil. Nowhere was written that even if he was, he's killing every Night. (Yes, I know, no need to repeat your thoughts on the matter, I've read them several times already, just stating this for the sake of completion.) Nowhere was written that even if all that was so, Zil was the Acolyte. I.e.: Your idea - as you claim it was - of making a double-lynch, or lynching Zil over Nog, was based on the possibility that Zil was the Acolyte, on top of that evil Acolyte, on top of that that the Acolyte is killing people and therefore it is better to kill him than Nog. My motto is "never tell me the odds" and I am against all maths and all that, but seriously, the chance that even if you were right about the role that you would actually even lynch the real Acolyte was far lesser than that you would help the village to achieve something by lynching Nog. Also, if you indeed are innocent and interested in the good of the village - had it never occured to you that the game would be imbalanced like Angband if there was just another evil every-Night-killer? Even if he were to choose his side in the beginning, such a role would really be completely over the top.

I think we have (and you have also answered about it to others many times) been talking this over many times, so I think we can drop the subject, there is probably nothing much new to add anymore (unless, Shasta, you have something that you haven't said yet to comment on what I just said, of course). But it helped me to hear all your arguments in some clearer order, and the basic impression I have about you right now is that of being somewhat suspicious. Based on that if I compare the possibility that you sincerely were thinking the thing you are now telling us you were thinking, and the possibility that you were thinking something completely different and are just making this all up now that you had to answer about it to other people, I must say the other one sounds far more probable and logical. Of course, the question is then what did you really think in case what you are saying is fabricated - since I am not sure if, as a Wolf, you'd believe you could pull that off (saving Nog, that is, or evening the odds by double-lynching him in case Zil is innocent). Of course that's already second rather daring move you'd do in this game (after Day 1 Bom lynch), so if you believed you could pull that off again? Anyway, will be looking at what else you are going to post toDay.

I would like to also take a look at other people, but the best would be to see somebody else post as well...

EDIT: x-ed with Greenie

[Thinlómien]

AAAAAAAAAAAARGH. I just lost a long post I had written, because Internet Explorer and my dad's computer suck. Not bolding any names anymore because it's difficult with this sad excuse of a touchpad/mouse.

To summarise: I suck. This game sucks. Couldn't go much worse, at least from my personal pov, if you think about who I have trusted and suspected so far. Serious rethinking in order, like I predicted late yesterDay.

I don't understand why 80% of toDay has been just discussion of the acolyte, and the only looks into Nog's posts have been by our seer. What's wrong with you people?

Boro and Zil look pretty innocent to me now, Legate and Shasta are weird (that obsession on the acolyte is not natural even for Shasta who can be a little single-minded at times ), Pitch is under my radar and I have a vague bad feeling about Pom. I will need to reread and think more, maybe make a list.

ps. Okay, I bolded, but crappily. I don't understand how Nog can use this touchpad daily without going mad...


edit: xed with Greenie and Legate

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Nogrod on Lommy

Day 1, Nogrod barely mentions Lommy at all. He mentions her in passing in a post on Pitch and another on Lottie, then near the end of the day he says this -

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Well, a fair 1½ hours until the DL. I'll try to make sense of a few things (Lommy-suspicion and Inzil's behaviour at least).

and then in #122 he defends her.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So Lommy "stretches points", uses the word "weird" too often and "defends Pitch" (which is then corrected as a misunderstanding)? Her guilt seems only too obvious...

I mean really?

What he's defending her against here is the votes she got from Eruhen (he calls it "bandwagoning in major scale" and G55 ("possible bandwagon".) It's interesting to note that most of what this post is about, seemingly, is less defense of Lommy and more a changing of his attitudes toward G55, who he started the Day very trusting of. The two (defense of Lommy and early defense of G55) actually look rather similar.

And that's all Nogrod says about Lommy on Day 1.

Day 2, Nog's #168:

Originally Posted by Nog

Well, anyway, you actually do quote my post where I explain my change of heart. I mean the sudden Lommywagon did raise some eyebrows and when I read your post where you explained your... well what could it be, change of heart (? ) to suddenly suspect Lommy when she started gathering suspicion... well that made me suspect you - and thus to reconsider the innocence of your outburst as well.

It was not only the fact that you suddenly jumped on the fast-emerging Lommy-train, but the way you did it. (Explained in my #122)

Heh, I saw Lommy posted about you confidence of being alive, to write such a strong "defence by attack" I'd say, so I'm not going to say anything more about it.

Again, more a justification of his suspicion of G55 than anything about Lommy. The only thing a little bit interesting here is that last comment, which is basically a tacit endorsement of what Lommy said earlier. I suppose it could be a way to subtly reinforce good vibes about Lommy, but it's such a small thing that I doubt it.

Originally Posted by Nog

I was willing to discuss with the people around then (about 15 minutes before the DL or something) of the possibilities between Bom, Boro and G55 but had to take a phone-call from my colleague and when I came back people were already voting for Bom which kind of made it futile to vote differently as I had nothing against Lommy.

Just go and check.

Here he's answering Pitch about the Bom lynch, and mentions that he had no reason to vote for Lommy as he had nothing against her. And he hasn't, so that's okay.

Nog's #201 is in answer to a post of Lommy's from earlier, and he's very neutral about it, just basically responding to something she said rather than attacking her or defending her at all.

A short quote from #228:

Originally Posted by Nog

I did change my mind because of the way you suddenly jumped on Lommy (there was a train emerging there) - and especially the way you did it (you underlined it was the substance of her posts but never said anything about it yourself).

Again in response to G55. Mentions again that Lommy was going to be bandwagoned.

Originally Posted by Nog

Lommy!: I think she acts like her normal self - which is to say quite little. She talks sense and I have nothing against her thus far - nor any reasons to trust her over the careful reasonableness -point.

This is what Nog had to say about Lommy from his list post, #234, right after Eonwe's reveal. Again, very neutral, nothing for or against.

And then he doesn't mention her again after that.

So, conclusions - well, there aren't really very many to be drawn here, to be honest. Nog barely mentioned Lommy, and when he did he was either kinda defensive or completely neutral. I suppose it could be a giant case of distancing, but there's not really anything to support that.

[Thinlómien]

Innocentish
Greenie
Boro
Zil

Unsure
Lottie - not too alarming anymore but kind of under my radar

Weird or vaguely bad feeling
Sally - I got a bit of bad vibes from something she posted, but I don't remember what
Legate
Shasta
Pom
Pitch

Suspicious
no-one

...great. I just made the headings and started throwing the people under them, and this is what I came up with. I don't really like the lack of real suspects, and I have the feeling I'm being fooled. If I had to guess, I would say the remaining wolves are Pom, Pitch/Sally and Legate/Shasta (both of them can't be innocently weird).


edit: xed with Shasta

[Loslote]

After Legate's weird flip-out over Steve not revealing the Ordo yesterDay, and his dogged (and, as it seems to me at least, flimsy and grasping-at-strawsy) pursuit of Shasta (who's seemed logical and genuine, if not always right, to me this whole game), I'm very much inclined to vote him toDay. Pitchie also seems off to me, but I'm less convinced of his guilt than of Legate's.

Obviously Steve is innocent, but Lommy, Sally, and Nate also seem pretty good to me, and I'm leaning innocent on Boro, Shasta, and Zil (though hardly definitively yet!). I have no read whatsoever on Greenie, and if there's anyone else playing, I've gotten so little a read on them that I've forgotten them entirely.

Obviously, this means that one of the people in my second category are evil. For now I'm thinking it'd be more likely to be Boro and Shasta - I'm more confident about the first three I mentioned, and Zil and Greenie, for some reason, don't strike me as all that evil this game (of course, they also don't strike me as all that innocent, but that's why they're in the categories they're in).

[Thinlómien]

I'm happy Shasta's analysing Nog's interactions with people and I'm aware this will sound really weird coming from me - but I think me and Nogrod's interactions look worse than Shasta makes them look (let's face it - you could call it even sort of co-operation, and that's my mistake), so the fact that Shasta takes them so lightly makes me more suspicious of him. I don't think an innocent who logically cannot know I'm innocent would be able to read me and Nogrod's interactions with such lack of suspicion to my direction, whatever the final conclusion. Just sayin'.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Legate

These were only questions, and completely "freely" phrased - a mere civilized way to ask you about something. Yet you are answering with rather defensive and sort of jumpy way at some moments. In contrary to what you say, I have *no* intention to lynch you for the sake of itself. But at least on first sight, I can't help to think you are making stuff up, or clutching to some pre-made points of your own.

"Defensive." "Jumpy." "Making stuff up." What did I tell you? Witchhunt. All me answering your questions did was give you more fodder for your witchhunt against me, because all you've mentioned are opinions that are designed to look like hard suspicions. Look at this -

This in particular sounds rather fabricated.

(in regards to this-)

I had originally forgotten about the fact that we could double lynch - I wanted Zil gone over Nog because I felt both were bad for the innocents, but killing Inzil would have dropped the nightkills from two to one (I still thought the Acolyte was going to kill the next night.) Then, after I voted, the idea of a double lynch was mentioned, which I thought was a fine idea - kill both with one lynch.

Now, you say this sounds fabricated. Obviously there's nothing I can say to that, since it's not fabricated. But it gives you an easy way to continue to suspect me, doesn't it?

I'm going to skip over all the bit about the Acolyte because it's clear that, whether you're innocent or evil, we just flat are not going to agree where he's concerned.

Based on that if I compare the possibility that you sincerely were thinking the thing you are now telling us you were thinking, and the possibility that you were thinking something completely different and are just making this all up now that you had to answer about it to other people, I must say the other one sounds far more probable and logical.

This is just the same point, restated in order to make it look like you have a bigger argument against me than you already do. Also, I said basically the same thing earlier in the day when I replied to Pom, so there's further proof I didn't make it all up just now.

[A Little Green]

Legate is weird. His reaction to Steve's reveal has, I think, been discussed in sufficient length already. In addition to that, the following made my radars beep:

Originally Posted by Legate

Isn't it rather the sign of an innocent to have conflicting opinions about something?

I know it might be just an odd phrasing, but it looks like his "conflicting opinions" were something he had thought were supposed to be the sign of an innocent, if you get what I mean.

I'm very undecided about Lommy, who's so confused it looks both very innocentish (a wolf would, surely, have more than enough material by now to legitly suspect anyone she wished, or else keep us distracted with any number of unrelated topics) and evil (I could see a Lommywolf refraining from accusing people on the grounds of being confused; playing it safe, in other words). I'm more inclined to lean towards the first scenario, though.

I remember thinking yesterDay that Nog's wolvery makes Boro look shinier; don't remember what that referred to but I'm sure I'll find it.

I'm still halfway through a cursory re-read of the entire thread, will try to get that done in a few and see if something catches my eye.


EDIT: x-ed with Lommy and Shasta

[Eönwë]

Now what if we had a Legate, Shasta and Boro wolf team?
And all this argument is just to cause mass confusion.
Unlikely but just another (not-so) crazy theory to think about.

[Pomegranate]

Okay.

First of all, I'm still pretty sure that Legate's a wolf, to such degree that if he gets an innocent lynched toDay, I'd feel he's played very impressively. Because even if you suspected Eonwe however badly, when he revealed, an ordinary person would've at least looked back and checked the facts before thinking he's wrong for all. And because this has been very clear to me from last night onwards, I wouldn't actually be surprised if this - how should we call it? - debate of Legate and Shasta's was a wolfy plan of making Shasta look good when Legate was lynched. Because, as Lommy says, it is weird.

Other than that, I'll need to reread. I'm having trouble concentrating, but I feel that some of the non-suspected ones (sally, Greenie and to be objective, myself) would deserve some looking into. By making noise, players like Nog and Legate (Shasta? Boro (though that wolf-on-wolf would also be somewhat impressive)? Lommy?) give them an easy place to hide.

And a sidenote: I wouldn't be surprised if Inzil was the acolyte, looking back. However, unless the acolyte starts killing again, I think we should kill the spies first. That's the name of the game. I have heard all the arguments about this and don't think I need more evaluation, just wanted to make my opinion clear.

edit. x/ed since Lommy's #342

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I'm happy Shasta's analysing Nog's interactions with people and I'm aware this will sound really weird coming from me - but I think me and Nogrod's interactions look worse than Shasta makes them look (let's face it - you could call it even sort of co-operation, and that's my mistake), so the fact that Shasta takes them so lightly makes me more suspicious of him. I don't think an innocent who logically cannot know I'm innocent would be able to read me and Nogrod's interactions with such lack of suspicion to my direction, whatever the final conclusion. Just sayin'.

Originally Posted by myself

Now I'm really getting annoyed. Apparently everything I say or do is going to be suspicious to someone.

*throws hands up*

I'm done talking for now. I'm making myself far too easy for the wolves to lynch, at this point.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

A question that isn't even rhetorical but a serious one I'd like an answer for: why the blazes is everyone discussing the flipping acolyte? Has everyone forgotten we have wolves to catch? A dead wolf whose relationships with people we could go through? Yes, we shouldn't forget about the acolyte, but debating about her/him to this extent makes no sense. Not when we really have more substantial food for thought and discussion.

/rant

I'm going to continue the vote analysis I started earlier. Back soon.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

AAAAAAAAAAAARGH. I just lost a long post I had written, because Internet Explorer and my dad's computer suck. Not bolding any names anymore because it's difficult with this sad excuse of a touchpad/mouse.

To summarise: I suck. This game sucks. Couldn't go much worse, at least from my personal pov, if you think about who I have trusted and suspected so far. Serious rethinking in order, like I predicted late yesterDay.

Ok. Both of you, inhale? Yes? Exhale? K. Thank you.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Red zone:

no one in particular

Orange zone:

Shasta

??? Zil ??? (might also go to grey zone)

Grey zone:

Boro - see above: I have no clue about him right now. Remembering from before, there is the "too nice..." thing from the first Days, but also the thing that I had made mental note about, which I had forgotten of course (and don't want to look it up right now in the middle of writing the post), but basically that there were some things he had said which sounded genuine

A Little Green - she didn't say anything suspicious or anything, but lately some stuff... I'm wondering about her suspicion of Steve yesterDay (which had its reasons, of course, even I thought that - but of course she might also have figured out the determined way of pursuing Nog was a knowing Seer pursuing a fellow Wolf - I mean, if she were a Wolf, she WOULD know the suspicion was spot on, and she could have figured out that such a determined pursuit was coming from Seer, and might have wanted to try to get him lynched... hmm, now that I thought about this, I might actually put her even to the orange zone cathegory...)

Yellow zone:

Pitch - does not sound like evil

Pomegranate - I've been trusing her all the time, the reason I just moved her into the yellow zone is that a few things she said lately made me uncertain, but maybe it's just that I got subconsciously unnerved by her suspicion of me.

Lommy - sounds better lately

Green zone:

Lottie

Sally

White zone:

Steve

Well - given, that there are still three Wolves, somebody has to be them, right? Hmm...

EDIT: x-ed with a host since Lottie

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Lommy

I'm happy Shasta's analysing Nog's interactions with people and I'm aware this will sound really weird coming from me - but I think me and Nogrod's interactions look worse than Shasta makes them look (let's face it - you could call it even sort of co-operation, and that's my mistake), so the fact that Shasta takes them so lightly makes me more suspicious of him. I don't think an innocent who logically cannot know I'm innocent would be able to read me and Nogrod's interactions with such lack of suspicion to my direction, whatever the final conclusion. Just sayin'.

If this comes from a Lommywolf, my hat's off to her. Made me feel better about her, anyway; I don't think a wolf would come up with a point like that (objectively evaluating one's own communication with a packmate is pretty hard) and if she would, it'd take some guts to say it aloud. In short, feeling a tad better about Lommy.


EDIT: x-ed since my last

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Now what if we had a Legate, Shasta and Boro wolf team?
And all this argument is just to cause mass confusion.
Unlikely but just another (not-so) crazy theory to think about.

I'd be willing to consider the option of a Legate-Shasta-?Pitch? pack, at any rate.

EDIT: xed with a bunch

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Legate

A Little Green - she didn't say anything suspicious or anything, but lately some stuff... I'm wondering about her suspicion of Steve yesterDay (which had its reasons, of course, even I thought that - but of course she might also have figured out the determined way of pursuing Nog was a knowing Seer pursuing a fellow Wolf - I mean, if she were a Wolf, she WOULD know the suspicion was spot on, and she could have figured out that such a determined pursuit was coming from Seer, and might have wanted to try to get him lynched... hmm, now that I thought about this, I might actually put her even to the orange zone cathegory...)

Err - you do know that the exact same thing applies to yourself as well? The only difference between us with regards to Steve's case against Nog was that I had to vote and go to sleep immediately after it.

[Pomegranate]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Err - you do know that the exact same thing applies to yourself as well? The only difference between us with regards to Steve's case against Nog was that I had to vote and go to sleep immediately after it.

Exactly, Greenie. Which is actually pretty funny since Legate has gotten all the suspicion (at least mine) until now. I could do some looking at your posts.

[Thinlómien]

Eönwë and Lottie - after what we've seen toDay, do you really believe Shasta and Legate could be in the same wolf team?

Btw Eönwë since not many people answered your question, I agree with whoever it was (Zil?) who said the best time to reveal the dream would be before European bedtime today.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I'm happy Shasta's analysing Nog's interactions with people and I'm aware this will sound really weird coming from me - but I think me and Nogrod's interactions look worse than Shasta makes them look (let's face it - you could call it even sort of co-operation, and that's my mistake), so the fact that Shasta takes them so lightly makes me more suspicious of him. I don't think an innocent who logically cannot know I'm innocent would be able to read me and Nogrod's interactions with such lack of suspicion to my direction, whatever the final conclusion. Just sayin'.

Hmm, in fact, this indeed made me somehow suspicious about Lommy again. It's not just the fact that it would look weird (because I know you do that), nor the fact that you said we might think it looks weird (because I know you do that as well), but also the elaboration on it and devoting one whole post to it... especially if Shasta turns out to be Wolf (and if now he is under some suspicion), this might also be a slight way to sort of suspect him (and in case he is lynched, to show that you are separed from him).

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

"Defensive." "Jumpy." "Making stuff up." What did I tell you? Witchhunt. All me answering your questions did was give you more fodder for your witchhunt against me, because all you've mentioned are opinions that are designed to look like hard suspicions. Look at this -

(in regards to this-)

Now, you say this sounds fabricated. Obviously there's nothing I can say to that, since it's not fabricated. But it gives you an easy way to continue to suspect me, doesn't it?

I was afraid you will say something like this, and therefore I am not talking anymore to you about this, because you are convinced I am evilly trying to frame you, which I said already last time I am not. So until you are willing to reevaluate and reconsiderate the possibility that it is not so, the debate makes no sense. If you have pre-determined opinions, you can hardly believe you are deciding objectively (or, as much "objectively" as one can). That is not asking you to stop suspecting me, by any means, but merely appeal to bring that to your attention that it might not be as you project - at least on the level of discussion. If you are innocent, I am warning you that you are having a tunnel vision in that I am writing everything with some evil intent. Your unwillingness to acknowledge this thus far (despite me telling this to you already before, only in different words) makes me only support my belief. And no, that is not predetermined answer (as you would most likely say based on how you've been reacting this far), but direct response based on this and only this reaction of yours. In case you are a Wolf (which I now believe), it of course makes perfect sense, because you try to disqualify suspicions against yourself (or pass it on me, if you can, even better).

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

First of all, I'm still pretty sure that Legate's a wolf, to such degree that if he gets an innocent lynched toDay, I'd feel he's played very impressively. Because even if you suspected Eonwe however badly, when he revealed, an ordinary person would've at least looked back and checked the facts before thinking he's wrong for all.

I did it, but only later. Do you remember everything e.g. I have written in the game? Probably not. If you are indeed suspecting me heavily and if I now told you that I am the Seer, how would you react? Probably the first reaction would be diselief at least. Maybe then after reading some old posts and seeing them in different light, you would reconsider. But if you wrote your first post without looking back, who knows how it would look, right?

And because this has been very clear to me from last night onwards, I wouldn't actually be surprised if this - how should we call it? - debate of Legate and Shasta's was a wolfy plan of making Shasta look good when Legate was lynched. Because, as Lommy says, it is weird.

For further reference: If Shasta is really a Wolf, this makes Nate look rather good in my book. However, in case he wasn't, then if Nate was a Wolf instead, it would be very nasty way to connect two innocents.

EDIT: x-ed since my last

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Eönwë and Lottie - after what we've seen toDay, do you really believe Shasta and Legate could be in the same wolf team?

It would be insanely bold, but whoever survived would look very good. How much did Shasta suspect Legate before toDay? It could be the wolves decided that, since Legate was likely to be lynched for his suspicious reaction to Steve's dream, Shasta might as well come out of it looking very good.

Now, I'm not saying that this is necessarily what I think, but it is a possiblity I'm considering.

EDIT: xed with Legate