TIG XCIV– WHere the Stars Are Strange (Game thread)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Pitch

That said, I must say I don't like Shasta's suggestion from yesterDay to lynch the putative Acolyte before Nog, because it would have left Nog's role, and thus the truth of Eönwë's dream, uncertain for another Day, giving the wolves time to concoct an emergency strategy, while risking to lynch an innocent instead. I can't see how that would have been helpful to anybody but the wolves.

Now I'm really getting annoyed. Apparently everything I say or do is going to be suspicious to someone. Also, Pitch, this is crap. Eonwe wasn't that suspected, there was no reason for an Eonwe-wolf to self-destruct by fake-revealing on D2. Therefore, he was legit, his dream on Nog was legit, and at the time it was very likely (to me, apparently, but not to anyone else) that there was going to, again, be a second kill on N2, which I wanted to prevent. This bit about "wolves concocting an emergency strategy" is rubbish, as evidenced by the nine votes on Nog yesterday.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

As I said before, Eru definitely wasn't the most shining example of innocentness on Day 1, so if the calling was caused by the Acolyte, I'd be inclined to say that xe has taken the side of the village.

I actually thought this was a good point. The way I see it, there are only four reasons why the Acolyte killed Eruhen.

Option A: The Acolyte is a were-bear and kills every Night. This was proved false by the lack of a kill last Night.

Option B1: The Acolyte is a type of were-bear that kills every so often and wants the village (and spies) to all die. This is possible, and the only possible option where the Acolyte is definitively evil.

Option B2: The Acolyte still kills every so often, but xe doesn't necessarily want the village to all die. Xe killed Eruhen because xe thought Eruhen was a spy, and used his "every so often" kill to take out a potential spy, but was mistaken.

Option C: The Acolyte took the role of the person xe killed, and is now an ordo.

I won't go so far as to say it's more likely that the Acolyte isn't necessarily on our side, but it's not impossible, so I'm definitely not comfortable with writing the Acolyte off as evil as a matter of course.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

While going back and looking at Legate, I found this -

Originally Posted by Legate

I actually suggest first NOT. Keep everyone (especially the WWs, therefore) in the dark until the end of the Day - or until most people really have to start voting, at least (=e.g. if people started to suspect you one Ordo heavily, Eönwë, you should stop them and reveal the person) - because if you don't say that yet, the WWs can be confused, we can possibly read more from their reactions... Nobody will kill you until the end of the Day, right, so no hurry with that.

- in regards to whether Eonwe should reveal his ordo. Now, my overall reaction to Legate is still that he seems extremely fishy, but this is actually an interesting point, and one that looks fairly innocent, actually.

The main reason it caught my eye, actually, is how Legate can post well-thought-out points like this and at the same time be as wildly off-kilter as he has been? My overall conclusion on this is while the point makes him look slightly better, the dichotomy makes him look worse.

[Eönwë]

Popping in for a second:

What does everyone think about me revealing the Ordo? When is the right time?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

But don't you see that your reluctance to discuss the Acolyte could make people wonder whether you had any personal stakes in the matter? And your complete silence when Rikae challenged you on it could be seen as telling in its own way.

Maybe you aren't in fact the Acolyte, but don't you see how somebody could get the idea?

I guess you're right. I still don't see any reason to be fixated on the Acolyte instead of the Spies, though.

Originally Posted by Loslote

The way I see it, there are only four reasons why the Acolyte killed Eruhen.

Option A: The Acolyte is a were-bear and kills every Night. This was proved false by the lack of a kill last Night.

Option B1: The Acolyte is a type of were-bear that kills every so often and wants the village (and spies) to all die. This is possible, and the only possible option where the Acolyte is definitively evil.

Option B2: The Acolyte still kills every so often, but xe doesn't necessarily want the village to all die. Xe killed Eruhen because xe thought Eruhen was a spy, and used his "every so often" kill to take out a potential spy, but was mistaken.

Option C: The Acolyte took the role of the person xe killed, and is now an ordo.

I won't go so far as to say it's more likely that the Acolyte isn't necessarily on our side, but it's not impossible, so I'm definitely not comfortable with writing the Acolyte off as evil as a matter of course.

Maybe the Acolyte, being a "follower" or "learner" may make Option C the most likely, but it's still only speculation.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

What does everyone think about me revealing the Ordo? When is the right time?

I'd say wait until the Day's half over, at least. People need to be observed without having that out just yet.

x/d with Pitch

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I guess you're right. I still don't see any reason to be fixated on the Acolyte instead of the Spies, though.

Aye, and that's what I'm trying to get at, just because I don't know what side the Acolyte's on, or really what the Acolyte's powers are, doesn't mean we have to "find acolyte and lynch him NOW" rampage.

It's very possible Nog and the wolves are right, but there's certainly no reason to believe it, let alone argue that it's "clear and obvious the Acolyte's bad." So, everyone, I'm serious here, who has the most to benefit from trying to redirect our lynch focus onto the acolyte? Come on. Say it all with me.

[satansaloser2005]

Ahem. Did anyone consider that the Acolyte may in fact be a Nightly killer who targeted Steve (or someone else) last Night, and that Galadriel protected him/her/it/your mother? Or, perhaps, the wolves targeted our dear departed lass Lad, and the Acolyte targeted Steve/whomever else.

I mean really. When wolves don't get a kill, we all immediately assume that the ranger was doing their job, but when we have an unknown probable killing role in our midst, we forget that possibility? I'm a bit disappointed.


Or, as they say in Limerick....

Why do none of you pause to think
That last Night there might be a link
Between Gal55
And Steve, who's alive
Despite the wolves' Nightly hijinx


EDIT: x'd since we were still on page 8 (hush, you lot, I've been busy)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Ahem. Did anyone consider that the Acolyte may in fact be a Nightly killer who targeted Steve (or someone else) last Night, and that Galadriel protected him/her/it/your mother? Or, perhaps, the wolves targeted our dear departed lass Lad, and the Acolyte targeted Steve/whomever else.

I mean really. When wolves don't get a kill, we all immediately assume that the ranger was doing their job, but when we have an unknown probable killing role in our midst, we forget that possibility? I'm a bit disappointed.

The narrative appears to support only one attempted and completed kill. I don't see any evidence two people were targeted.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The narrative appears to support only one attempted and completed kill. I don't see any evidence two people were targeted.

The narrative for N1 appears to support that Eruhen was killed by someone, not modkilled.

Oh, right. My bad. Shutting up.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Boro, your post is based entirely around the fact that you think I was saying Nog was being reasonable (thus implying that I was defending him.) If you look back, you'll see that I fully believed Eonwe that Nog was a wolf - I simply thought I would try and prevent someone I thought had killing powers from killing again. What's better, two kills per night or one? You're going far, far out of your way to misrepresent me here and I don't like it one bit.

And I'm not "fixated" on the Acolyte. There's no "rampage". I keep bringing up the subject because NO ONE ELSE WILL. Seriously, everyone but me thus far has basically said "oh well we don't know the Acolyte isn't playing for the good team" and has basically left it there and I think that's wrong. The Acolyte doesn't count for innocents or wolves in the tally - how likely is it the Acolyte can only win by himself? Answer: pretty likely.

But fine. If the only response I'm going to get is "Shasta's suspicious for talking about the Acolyte" then I'll drop the subject completely. I won't even say "told you so" when the Acolyte wins by themselves.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Boro, your post is based entirely around the fact that you think I was saying Nog was being reasonable (thus implying that I was defending him.) If you look back, you'll see that I fully believed Eonwe that Nog was a wolf - I simply thought I would try and prevent someone I thought had killing powers from killing again. What's better, two kills per night or one? You're going far, far out of your way to misrepresent me here and I don't like it one bit.

And I'm not "fixated" on the Acolyte. There's no "rampage". I keep bringing up the subject because NO ONE ELSE WILL. Seriously, everyone but me thus far has basically said "oh well we don't know the Acolyte isn't playing for the good team" and has basically left it there and I think that's wrong. The Acolyte doesn't count for innocents or wolves in the tally - how likely is it the Acolyte can only win by himself? Answer: pretty likely.

But fine. If the only response I'm going to get is "Shasta's suspicious for talking about the Acolyte" then I'll drop the subject completely. I won't even say "told you so" when the Acolyte wins by themselves.

I suppose it could be one of those difference of opinion/playing style moments. I just can't see why there should be so much worry created about an unknown role. And the fact that Nog did it yesterday put me "wolves are trying to make the acolyte the focus and lynch him/her." Sure, I may be hopefully assuming the acolyte is on our side, but that to me looks like a much safer assumption than your assumption that he/she is a dangerous threat.

If you're right about the acolyte though, we still have the wolves to deal with and there really isn't a reason to believe that the Acolyte gets to kill each night, so I'm not seeing why I should feel more of a threat from the acolyte than from the 3 remaining wolves.

Anyway, I'm at least going to take a break, because I see I might be wrong with assuming only wolves are trying to focus our attention on the acolyte.

Edit: crossed since Inzil's post 330

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Ahem. Did anyone consider that the Acolyte may in fact be a Nightly killer who targeted Steve (or someone else) last Night, and that Galadriel protected him/her/it/your mother? Or, perhaps, the wolves targeted our dear departed lass Lad, and the Acolyte targeted Steve/whomever else.

I mean really. When wolves don't get a kill, we all immediately assume that the ranger was doing their job, but when we have an unknown probable killing role in our midst, we forget that possibility? I'm a bit disappointed.

Sort of a stretch, I think (if I understood it correctly what you mean). I wouldn't overcombinate things that much. Aside from that, what I said at the end of the post above.

[satansaloser2005]

Finns +1 and Shasta: Kindly calm down and stop flipping out. Now.

Thank you. Moving right along....

Originally Posted by Her Modness

The Acolyte....Does not count for either side in the tally.

So, if you go with the assumption that the Acolyte kills every Night, yes, they are evil, but as far as numbers in the tally, the wolves are a bigger issue. We currently have ten people, which means we have nine people, which means we have three wolves and six goodies (and then of course the Acolyte). If we go after the Acolyte toDay and succeed, we will be in the same position toMorrow, except worse after the Night's kill. If we go after a wolf and succeed, we improve our numbers, which, granted, will decrease over the Night. Consider, however, the fact that the werewolves could kill the Acolyte, or the Acolyte could target one of the wolves. Thus, our more pressing issue must be the wolves, as they are a cohesive (mostly) unit, whereas the Acolyte, while a definite threat, is one man/woman.

Of course evil is evil, so as long as our lynch is evil, I will be happy. Thus, I'm not suspecting X or Y more of being wolf or Acolyte, but of being evil, period, the end.


Now onto other players....

I honestly believe that Shasta's over-the-top reaction to suspicion (which, at this point, has become rather silly, on both sides) is that of an innocent Shasta. As one who reacts so strongly as a suspected innocent, I can understand his annoyance. Of course, he could be acting, but I'd probably want to snuggle him either way. He is far from my main concern toDay.

Considering that I've suspected Legate most of the game, and that his reaction to Steve's reveal was so bizarre, I'm hardly going to stop suspecting him. He is my most likely vote candidate toDay.

Just so I can say I said it, if Steve is lying, he is in so much trouble.

Lommie's "I think Shasta should have found something wrong with my XYZ" makes me feel both more at ease and more concerned. Yes, it's true that it's something an ordo Lommie would say, but an evil Lommie would know that and would say it to look like an innocent Lommie saying that to make herself look more innocent. And other blather. Blargh, Lommie, I wish you hadn't said anything at all. I'm so torn now. :/

I can't get a good read on Lottie, PomPom, and Boro, so I'm leaving them alone in favor of better prospects.

Greenie rather fits into the above category, but I never can read her well, so I've come to expect that. If someone gives me a good reason to lynch her, I would, but otherwise I would be happy to leave her be and hope she is on my side.

I still maintain that Dun is evil. And no, Dun, it is not just because of your discussion (or rather, preference to have a lack thereof) of the Acolyte role. He simply reads like Inziladundundun to me, and has throughout most of the game. Now, someone explain to me exactly why he's the Acolyte and not a wolf.

And Pitch? Goodness, in another few posts, I'll have caught up to him, yet despite how little he's said, I've got this clear guilty impression of him. I think....honestly, I think I'm getting him and Dun blended again. I went back and looked back at my previous post (you know, the one that was longer than six lines) and couldn't help but notice that I didn't have much to say about him. Of course, what I said wasn't very good, but now that I've gone over things again, I don't want to concern myself with him toDay for fear that I've overreacted.

We all know what this list means, right? It means that I will be voting for Legate or Dun toDay. Which one though? I'm not yet sure.


Or, as they say in Limerick....

Both Acolyte and wolf are bad
So why are we all getting mad
About this new role?
Why should we take polls
When we're all about to be had?

Just sayin'.


EDIT: I've been working on this list for about two hours, having been pulled away from the computer multiple times, so I've not really read the last....ten posts?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

So, if you go with the assumption that the Acolyte kills every Night, yes, they are evil, but as far as numbers in the tally, the wolves are a bigger issue. We currently have ten people, which means we have nine people, which means we have three wolves and six goodies (and then of course the Acolyte). If we go after the Acolyte toDay and succeed, we will be in the same position toMorrow, except worse after the Night's kill. If we go after a wolf and succeed, we improve our numbers, which, granted, will decrease over the Night. Consider, however, the fact that the werewolves could kill the Acolyte, or the Acolyte could target one of the wolves. Thus, our more pressing issue must be the wolves, as they are a cohesive (mostly) unit, whereas the Acolyte, while a definite threat, is one man/woman.

That is in fact a VERY GOOD point and I think the whole village should smack its head for not saying this aloud before. I wonder whether the WWs have been leading us by our noses like that all the time ("lynch the Acolyte!" - Nog, and now if Shasta is the Wolf, it would be the same), or if we are just really so dumb village. I wouldn't be surprised by the latter, but... well.

Originally Posted by sally

Considering that I've suspected Legate most of the game, and that his reaction to Steve's reveal was so bizarre, I'm hardly going to stop suspecting him. He is my most likely vote candidate toDay.

Wow, really? Now that is news to me. Since when?

I am not so very surprised that people suspect me, since it started already yesterDay, and of course many people started suspecting me only now, some of them no doubt out of evil intentions. I know Shasta started suspecting me rather suddenly only this morning, but that is understandable because, as I am aware, my suspicion of Steve's claim had caused many to start frowning upon me. But if somebody claims "I have been suspecting you all along..." These are rather strong words.

I would also urge those who have brains (which, I hope, are all of us, just some of them have currently evil intentions in them) to think of why they actually suspect me. If it is all based on "Freddy said that Joe said that Legate did not want to trust Steve, and I myself also recall reading him saying something like that, so it is probably true", then I would very much like to ask if it is enough for you to vote for me. I get the feeling many people have been consequently interpreting everything I've said in the worst possible light, with their eyes closed. I had said as much to Shasta, but that goes also for Eönwë who seemed to be convinced from the start of the Day that I am trying to do the worst (even claiming that I had wanted him to postpone revealing innocents with some evil intentions, even though I have not and I was the only one who had talked to him about it until very late), also I get the same feeling from Nate and some others (maybe Sally here).

The worst thing are blind innocents who only latch to some idea without being able to criticise it. I know that because I did the very same thing when I wanted to lynch Steve yesterDay. You are now doing the very same thing. So if I am lynched, remember that when other people start accusing you for it. If you want to lynch me, then at least try to find some honest reason for it, if you are innocent. If you can't, try not to fabricate, as it might also backfire on you later. Only WWs fabricate.

***

Random remark - I would very much like to hear Boro contribute to the general discussion again with something more than just remarks devoted to this or that particular debate with this or that player. It would help sorting thoughts on him, because I think he's been rather in the background lately due to this fact of being very "specifically aimed" only on some things.

Anyway, I might go to sleep soon... will be back to vote some short time before DL.

EDIT: x-ed since Sally

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Random remark - I would very much like to hear Boro contribute to the general discussion again with something more than just remarks devoted to this or that particular debate with this or that player. It would help sorting thoughts on him, because I think he's been rather in the background lately due to this fact of being very "specifically aimed" only on some things.

Rarely do I do general lists on everyone currently living. And no offense, but I'm not jumping through hoops for you and your thoughts. If I need to clarify anything I've said, fine, ask away. My thoughts on people might be too focused/set on only a few, but they should be clear enough. If I haven't commented on someone/some topic, it's either because I've got nothing to say that hasn't already been stated, it's not important enough to me, or I generally feel ok about the person/situation.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That is in fact a VERY GOOD point and I think the whole village should smack its head for not saying this aloud before. I wonder whether the WWs have been leading us by our noses like that all the time ("lynch the Acolyte!" - Nog, and now if Shasta is the Wolf, it would be the same), or if we are just really so dumb village. I wouldn't be surprised by the latter, but... well.

Actually, Dun (and myself, to a far lesser extent) has been saying how we shouldn't focus too much on the Acolyte, and that's exactly why other people have been suspecting him. (Not me. I'm a free thinker, see, and suspected him all on my own.) And thank you. It is a good point. Don't sound so surprised.

Originally Posted by Legate

Wow, really? Now that is news to me. Since when?

I am not so very surprised that people suspect me, since it started already yesterDay, and of course many people started suspecting me only now, some of them no doubt out of evil intentions. I know Shasta started suspecting me rather suddenly only this morning, but that is understandable because, as I am aware, my suspicion of Steve's claim had caused many to start frowning upon me. But if somebody claims "I have been suspecting you all along..." These are rather strong words.

I never said I suspected you all along. I said:

Originally Posted by me, Sally, whose name starts with an uppercase letter, thank you very much, children

Considering that I've suspected Legate most of the game, and that his reaction to Steve's reveal was so bizarre, I'm hardly going to stop suspecting him. He is my most likely vote candidate toDay.

Bolding mine, as is the victory. "Most of the game" and "all along" are two vastly different things, pet.


Huh. Well, that's unfortunate. I seem to have taken an accidental nap for a bit there, and I'm still quite sleepy. Considering that I doubt I'd wake up again in time to vote, I should just vote now, so that I might get some sleep.

++Legate

If you're shocked, try to hide it.


Or, as they say in Limerick....

Don't think that this changes my mind
Just 'cause our dear Legate was kind
I still trust him least
Aye, he's yet a beast
And thus we must leave him behind


(Sleeping now. Dealing with the idiocy of Dun being innocent later. Rest in pieces*, Steve, and thanks for all your help.)

*Note for the overzealous non-native (or non-sarcastic) speaker: Just pun and games there.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Eonwe wasn't that suspected

Yes he was - skimming through yesterDay's posts, Zil, Legate, Greenie, Lommy, sally and myself all suspected him or had bad feelings about him at some point or the other; so it's understandable he felt under enough pressure to reveal, especially with a wolf in his bag. And looking at the conspiracy theories Nog improvised on the spot in his defense yesterDay, there's no telling what he might have come up with if given another Night to confer with his packmates. Maybe I'm overestimating the danger, but I wouldn't have wanted to risk it.