Curse of Túrin

[Mithadan]

I do not believe that Turin's "curse" was a curse in the classic sense, meaning that Morgoth simply created an enchantment that followed Turin and his kin, causing bad things to happen resulting from the words he uttered themselves. I think that it was, instead, the result of specific attention and will being exerted by Morgoth. To quote some posts I made a little while back:

Until the publication last year of The Nature of Middle Earth (NoME), a significant essay by JRRT, Osanwe-Kenta, was only available in a limited fashion. Originally published in Vinyar Tengwar in 1998, this essay was available only to those who had a copy or could find it, or excerpts of it, on the internet. Osanwe-Kenta was known to many here, and I was fortunate enough to get a copy of that edition of the pamphlet shortly after it came out.

The essay, on its face and from a quick review, addresses mind to mind communication, primarily what we see at the end of LoTR during the post-war journey back north, when the bearers of the three Elven Rings converse in this manner after the Hobbits have fallen asleep. However, the essay goes much deeper than being a simple discussion of Elvish "telepathy." The essay touches upon the relationship of the "soul" (Fea) to the body (hroa), the "clothing" of Valar and Maiar in "bodies," and, applicable here, gives insight into the fundamental nature of Morgoth.

Osanwe-Kenta states that for minds to communicate without words, among other things, both the sender and the receiver must be willing participants. Osanwe can not be used when a participant is unwilling. This type of communication cannot be forced. Nor can information be "stolen" from another's mind without permission. For this reason, when Hurin was captured and brought to Angband, Morgoth could not simply look into his mind and take from him the location of Gondolin. Morgoth could physically torture Hurin or use Osanwe to pressure Hurin's mind or cause pain or distress. Morgoth could also use Osanwe to show things to Hurin (just as Gorlim, a member of Barahir's band, was "shown" an image of his wife to cause him to betray Barahir). But Morgoth could not simply take from an unwilling Hurin's mind the information he wanted.

So what does this have to do with Hurin's curse? The essay also discusses "axani" and "unati." Axani are rules or laws imposed by Eru. It would be an axan that one should not murder another. Unati are things that are impossible or cannot be done due to the nature of Arda. Among the unati is using osanwe against one's will. It cannot be done. Morgoth's nature, at least as he evolved, was to repudiate all axani and rage against all unati. Imagine Morgoth's fury when he could not take from Hurin the location of Gondolin. But he could use osanwe to pressure Hurin and his family and to deceive them or lead them astray.

Turin, Morwen and Nienor were willful and prideful. But these traits were subject to the influence of Morgoth, at least when his attention was focused upon them. Elsewhere on these boards, it has been speculated that while they were in Doriath, behind Melian's girdle, Morgoth could neither perceive them or directly affect them. But their temperaments had already been affected by Morgoth, and in their pride and willfulness, they left Doriath and became available to Morgoth's influence. This is how I believe Morgoth's curse worked it's way to fulfillment.

and

Morgoth did not undertake to influence or even kill Hurin, he chose to destroy him and his family. Hurin and his family were not merely shown images, whether false, exaggerated or subject to misinterpretation. They were the focal points of Morgoth's malice and influence, which, as I suggest above, was inexorable and beyond their ability to resist. At the end, Hurin was physically and emotionally a broken man, but he was not "perverted" as perhaps Saruman was. He did not, at least not intentionally, betray his old friends and allies. He did slay Mim (at least in some versions), which may have been wrongful though deserved. He was undeservedly scornful towards Thingol, at least until he was, to some extent, relieved from Morgoth's sway by Melian. But his disclosure of Gondolin's general location was not a knowing betrayal. Ultimately, his will was not broken.

However, I also noted:

The wording of Morgoth's curse is relevant here. There is a marked difference between what appears in the Silmarillion and what is said in the Children of Hurin (and, unfortunately, I cannot put my hands on Unfinished Tales right now). The Silmarillion barely summarizes the curse, stating that "Morgoth cursed Hurin and Morwen and their offspring, and set a doom upon them of darkness and sorrow..." This, on its face, might not extend past the family itself. In contrast, Children of Hurin sets out an extended dialogue between Hurin and Morgoth. In relevant part, Morgoth is quoted as follows:

Quote:
"But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death."

Maybe this explains why Turin and his family seemed to shed ill-fate like a duck sheds water?

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I do not believe that Turin's "curse" was a curse in the classic sense, meaning that Morgoth simply created an enchantment that followed Turin and his kin, causing bad things to happen resulting from the words he uttered themselves. I think that it was, instead, the result of specific attention and will being exerted by Morgoth.

Looking at your quotes, it seems that we're in agreement broadly speaking.

However, I'd like to point out something in this quote:

"But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death."

Maybe this explains why Turin and his family seemed to shed ill-fate like a duck sheds water?

The way I see it, there are only two explanations behind Morgoth' "curse":

1) The "curse" is just 'wind', i.e. it has no power whatsoever other than what Morgoth imbues it with due to his obssession/actions + what the victim of the "curse" does with it

2) Iluvatar 'approved' of this curse, and made it real - which, while horrific, isn't too far from the Book of Job, especially if there was some cosmic significance of things happening the way they did


Personally, I prefer interpretation no. 1), not only because it's less horrifying, but also because it allows the interplay of free will vs fate in an organic way, never outright stating what was and wasn't due to Morgoth's influence outright, and what was and wasn't due to Turin's...eh...idiosyncracies...


The no. 1) is also much more in line with ancient Greek myths, which I adore.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

2) Iluvatar 'approved' of this curse, and made it real - which, while horrific, isn't too far from the Book of Job, especially if there was some cosmic significance of things happening the way they did.

This statement doesn't quite sit right with me on the ground of the assumption that Iluvatar's "permission" or assistance was needed to cast the curse. Morgoth, like all of Eru's creations, has his own free will and is free to execute it. If the Valar can create a sense of blessing, or help people out in little (and even not so little) ways without applying to Eru each time - why can't Morgoth do the same? Or is the implication that Eru ought to have "blocked" this particular curse, as it infringed on the free will of Men - one of the fundamental essenses of his creation? But Morgoth's curse doesn't take away their free will, it just influences the outcome. Turin and co. are free to act however they choose. But Men only choose the action, not the outcome. So no contradiction. No reason why Morgoth's ill-attention can exert the same effect of ill-luck as the Valar's positive attention creates a cloud of "good luck" and protection.


You made me think though about what sort of "out" Turin might realistically have had. Though many of his specific choices and words might be questioned, the general theme that runs through all his seeming "outs" is a choice between fighting Morgoth and living a relatively quiet and obscure life... and Turin cannot but rise up to fight Morgoth, wherever he may be. Pridefully or humbly, rudely or politely, but Turin will always eventually steer towards the path of putting himself up as Morgoth's opponent - and I think this is what opens him to the effects of Morgoth's ill-will. The bigger deeds you stir up, the bigger the consequence of disaster. And of course how easy to identify yourself as Morgoth's target when you draw his attention on the battlefield in any case. Turin's best option might have been to clear out a field or two to plow and live off his farm, a quiet and humble and sheltered existence. But he could never do that. He could not let go of his hatred for Morgoth, for what has been done at the Nirnaeth and in the subsequent years during the occupation, not to mention the ancestral hatred he inherited by his upbringing even during the peaceful years. Turin could not keep his head down and rest, knowing he had so much strength of mind and body and yet not lifting a finger to battle Morgoth in this most direct way. This brings me to an interesting thought. Perhaps Turin's true escape from the curse would have been in forgiving Morgoth. Forgiveness as a means of becoming unreachable to ill-will, and finding his own peace. There is a certain fan-fic which explores a similar idea with Beren, but I think it's even more interesting with Turin.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

This statement doesn't quite sit right with me on the ground of the assumption that Iluvatar's "permission" or assistance was needed to cast the curse. Morgoth, like all of Eru's creations, has his own free will and is free to execute it. If the Valar can create a sense of blessing, or help people out in little (and even not so little) ways without applying to Eru each time - why can't Morgoth do the same? Or is the implication that Eru ought to have "blocked" this particular curse, as it infringed on the free will of Men - one of the fundamental essenses of his creation? But Morgoth's curse doesn't take away their free will, it just influences the outcome. Turin and co. are free to act however they choose. But Men only choose the action, not the outcome. So no contradiction. No reason why Morgoth's ill-attention can exert the same effect of ill-luck as the Valar's positive attention creates a cloud of "good luck" and protection.


You made me think though about what sort of "out" Turin might realistically have had. Though many of his specific choices and words might be questioned, the general theme that runs through all his seeming "outs" is a choice between fighting Morgoth and living a relatively quiet and obscure life... and Turin cannot but rise up to fight Morgoth, wherever he may be. Pridefully or humbly, rudely or politely, but Turin will always eventually steer towards the path of putting himself up as Morgoth's opponent - and I think this is what opens him to the effects of Morgoth's ill-will. The bigger deeds you stir up, the bigger the consequence of disaster. And of course how easy to identify yourself as Morgoth's target when you draw his attention on the battlefield in any case. Turin's best option might have been to clear out a field or two to plow and live off his farm, a quiet and humble and sheltered existence. But he could never do that. He could not let go of his hatred for Morgoth, for what has been done at the Nirnaeth and in the subsequent years during the occupation, not to mention the ancestral hatred he inherited by his upbringing even during the peaceful years. Turin could not keep his head down and rest, knowing he had so much strength of mind and body and yet not lifting a finger to battle Morgoth in this most direct way. This brings me to an interesting thought. Perhaps Turin's true escape from the curse would have been in forgiving Morgoth. Forgiveness as a means of becoming unreachable to ill-will, and finding his own peace. There is a certain fan-fic which explores a similar idea with Beren, but I think it's even more interesting with Turin.

First of, and no offense, but can you split your posts into paragraphs - otherwise it's just a giant wall of text?


Second - I don't think that 'living a small life' would be an out for Turin - by the time such a thing was even possible, word would reach out to Morgoth and the rest is 'history'...


Third - no, Morgoth is not supposed to be forgiven, Morgoth is supposed to be eliminated from existence...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

From the exerpt from Osanwe-kenta:

Turin, Morwen and Nienor were willful and prideful. But these traits were subject to the influence of Morgoth, at least when his attention was focused upon them.

And that I think encapsulates my view: the "curse" was Morgoth's ability to amplify the worst aspects of the target's nature. This is actually not unlike the operation of the One Ring in a later age. Morgoth didn't make Turin build the bridge at Nargothrond, but he made him arrogant (or more arrogant); he didn't make Turin hound Saeros to his death, but he made him wrathful and hot-tempered (or moreso). This is generally assumed among Christians (and I believe Jews) to be the usual way in which diabolic temptation works- qv The Screwtape Letters- which JRRT disliked, but ironically were dedicated to him.

That Morgoth could act as the Tempter, capital-T, can be seen in Tolkien's offstage but unmistakable allusion to the Eden story, especially the Tale of Adanel.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

From the exerpt from Osanwe-kenta:


And that I think encapsulates my view: the "curse" was Morgoth's ability to amplify the worst aspects of the target's nature. This is actually not unlike the operation of the One Ring in a later age. Morgoth didn't make Turin build the bridge at Nargothrond, but he made him arrogant (or more arrogant); he didn't make Turin hound Saeros to his death, but he made him wrathful and hot-tempered (or moreso). This is generally assumed among Christians (and I believe Jews) to be the usual way in which diabolic temptation works- qv The Screwtape Letters- which JRRT disliked, but ironically were dedicated to him.

That Morgoth could act as the Tempter, capital-T, can be seen in Tolkien's offstage but unmistakable allusion to the Eden story, especially the Tale of Adanel.

Can you elaborate more on that Osanwe-kenta passage? That is, in what context does it appear?

Because the way I see it, 'Morgoth's will' could be nothing more than just his extreme fixation on Hurin's family, and determination to destroy them through any means at his disposal - what all those means were, I'm not completelly sure, but Glaurung was definitely one of them.

And I'm not exactly sure how Morgoth managed to achieve things like making Turin more wrathful, arrogant, etc. And if he could do those things, why didn't he do them to all his other major foes - lord knows his enemies did not lack for character faults.