Curse of Túrin

[Galadriel55]

What happened to all the debating? Did I kill it?

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

What happened to all the debating? Did I kill it?

Hahahahahaha...no...BUT I'M SURE I'M GOING TO KILL SOMETHING! (don't worry, I won't). I was working on the Translations from the Elvish, revising some chapters for hours and hours - and wouldn't you know it!? I DELETED ALL THE STUFF I WAS WORKING ON!

But now...going back to your question about debate - I'll get to it when I catch a break from all the stuff I'm currently working on...

Sorry for the rant, but I lost literally hours of my time on nothing. But again, glad to see someone still interested in the topic .

[Arvegil145]

Turning to the debate again - if Morgoth could actually curse Húrin and his kin - to the extent of completely devastating them AND 4 realms along the side, it begs the question of why he couldn't just curse everybody and destroy everyone while he's at it (though, admittedly, he did, but not with a curse...I think...)?

It COULD be that he exerted what power he still had INTO the curse itself, basically making a little "avatar" of himself inside Túrin himself - or maybe inside Glaurung for that matter - sort of like a puppet master.

But that would be "cursing" only by indirect means - and he had the mastery at that field of endeavor for certain. Note how I sometimes put curse inside the quotation marks? The same I did when I mentioned how Ilúvatar "cursed" him - I did not mean that he actually, literally, cursed him in the sense of maliciously manipulating his fate and/or free will - in that context I was simply trying to show how far can you go, step by step, towards putting the blame on someone/something - in that case, towards the ultimate end - God Himself. But that is another matter and I won't go into it (at least for now).

[Pervinca Took]

I suppose Morgoth was petty enough to have 'pet hates'? He never forgave what he perceived as wrongs done to him. Seems like a tyrant's decision to make an example of a ringleader, and maybe try to cow the rest into submission - which he would see as a victory. Also, I think he saw it as a challenge to break the spirit of Hurin and his kin - he would see that as an enormous victory, too - although it was probably a challenge he began in arrogance, confident he would win but determined to enjoy it. Spite and revenge wreaked on his major opponents, and sadistic pleasure taken in making them suffer.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Turning to the debate again - if Morgoth could actually curse Húrin and his kin - to the extent of completely devastating them AND 4 realms along the side, it begs the question of why he couldn't just curse everybody and destroy everyone while he's at it (though, admittedly, he did, but not with a curse...I think...)?

One thing I want to point out again is that Morgoth couldn't have forseen the fall of the kingdoms. His curse was directed to Hurin & co on a personal level - to make their lives miserable. But because they tried to fight it, and because they rose so high and associated themselves with the highest in Middle Earth - well, the higher you climb the harder you fall, as they say.

Another thing is that I do not think Morgoth himself knew how the curse would work, and if it would work at all. The curse was an act of ill-will, a trace of his malice left on the family through his willpower - still terrible, however diluted. But maybe, just maybe, the power of these men was so great that it could throw off the curse, that these people would be unaffected? At first, Morgoth thought it inconceivable. However, he certainly begins to doubt himself by Amon Rudh, and possibly to a lesser extent during Turin's other rises. But, fortunately for Morgoth, Turin was just powerful enough to rise and associate with the high kingdoms, but not powerful enough to escape him.

Originally Posted by Arvegil

It COULD be that he exerted what power he still had INTO the curse itself, basically making a little "avatar" of himself inside Túrin himself - or maybe inside Glaurung for that matter - sort of like a puppet master.

I wouldn't have put it that way, but that is one way I tend to think of it.

Originally Posted by Arvegil

But that would be "cursing" only by indirect means - and he had the mastery at that field of endeavor for certain. Note how I sometimes put curse inside the quotation marks? The same I did when I mentioned how Ilúvatar "cursed" him - I did not mean that he actually, literally, cursed him in the sense of maliciously manipulating his fate and/or free will - in that context I was simply trying to show how far can you go, step by step, towards putting the blame on someone/something - in that case, towards the ultimate end - God Himself. But that is another matter and I won't go into it (at least for now).

I don't blame Morgoth for all the woes of Turin. And I agree with whoever says his pride, stubbornness, and rashness are to blame for the physical actions and physical consequences. But I do believe that to some level there is a lot of just plain rotten luck involved - way more than average, way more than other similar characters get. I don't think Turin's fate is purely Morgoth's doing, but I do think he had some influence. Perhaps not all the time, and only in the luck element, but it's just a wonder to see someone so great become so misfortunate (yes, that is now a word. Says me. Live with it. ).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Morgoth couldn't have forseen the fall of the kingdoms.

I'm not so sure about that. Morgoth after all was present in the Music, the greatest of the participants therein, even if much of the time his attention was on his own invention/corruption rather than what the rest were singing. Nonetheless, he was certainly aware of the major points, and the Music might not bind the Younger Children but certainly is as Fate to the Elder and their kingdoms.

In some ways I think his work on Hurin, in particular, was the creation of a spiritual Typhoid Mary, a walking moral bioweapon "infected" with evil, in that Hurin's spirit, originally great and noble, was now twisted, bitter and hate-filled, a contagion he spread everywhere he went after his release. And to what end, if not planting the seeds of destruction in those realms which still resisted?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

In some ways I think his work on Hurin, in particular, was the creation of a spiritual Typhoid Mary, a walking moral bioweapon "infected" with evil, in that Hurin's spirit, originally great and noble, was now twisted, bitter and hate-filled, a contagion he spread everywhere he went after his release. And to what end, if not planting the seeds of destruction in those realms which still resisted?

Yet Húrin, even more than his son, would seem to have been placed to avoid being such a "carrier".
Húrin knew Morgoth hated him and had placed the curse. He also is said to have been well aware of Morgoth's evil purpose in releasing him. Yet, he still went about playing the part set.

[Arvegil145]

It is also interesting to note that, despite Túrin's pride and arrogance, he managed to destroy only 1/3 of the remaining Elven kingdoms (not directly, of course).

It was actually Húrin himself who was the main "bio-weapon" of Morgoth. But considering his bitterness and his "evilness", I don't know about you, but if I was chained for 28 years and during that time forced to watch the ruin of everything that I hold dear, I would be little more than bitter and hate-filled - and even though he DID guess the purpose of Morgoth behind his release, what should've he done? In the words of Húrin himself (speaking to the dying Manthor):

Why, must I not still walk in the world?

Besides, the king and the realm, which he was protecting for so long and by such a heavy cost to himself and his kin, have basically disowned him when they heard that Morgoth released him (although Turgon did, ultimately, repent of his decision, it was by then too late) - and one more thing that just crossed my mind - had Turgon sent Thorondor to fetch Húrin when he first heard of his release, then Gondolin would stand at least for a while longer - and both the fate of Húrin AND the fate of the realms and peoples entwined with his fate might have been a little different.

Yes, in the end, Morgoth WOULD have prevailed, but at much greater cost to himself, and at much lesser cost to those who opposed him (at least as it seems to me).


Sorry for such a long rant, but my point is this - none should lightly judge people (especially in the case of Húrin).


P.S. I know, I know...I'm almost done...but basically everyone treated Húrin with a despicable disrespect when he was released - and they brought doom to themselves BY themselves.