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Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 369
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Túrin was proud - overproud. He brought his "curse" upon himself - or if we want to go "cosmic", then Ilúvatar himself "cursed him".
The TIME is no different than the SPACE - it has its boundaries, which, inside a finite universe, they are set. If Ilúvatar is omnipotent, he cannot be omniscient, and vice-versa. And IF Ilúvatar is ONLY omniscient he is bound by his knowledge of both past, present, and the future - therefore, there is no deed which he can do that he didn't foresee. And IF Ilúvatar is ONLY omnipotent, than he cannot see the future (which includes his OWN actions). But then again, if he is omnipotent he SHOULD be able to see the future (one aspect of omnipotence - ability to do ANYTHING at will) - and then WHAT? Omnipotence and omniscience are NOT compatible. Unless you are willing to do some really elaborate mental gymnastics. And even then, you would only break your bones. But that is the atheist and materialist speaking in me. And I digress. Concerning Túrin - we can only speculate - his story reminds me of ancient Nordic sagas in which FAITH had an integral part - faith, mind you, in the sense of a path set before the individual by forces greater than his own. And, interestingly enough, I subscribe to this view of the world. Though I do NOT believe in any god (even the God) or any "higher" power, I still think that any deed I have ever done or that I will ever do, is firmly set already in the thread of time. I CAN NOT change anything - meaning, even if I change something, it would STILL be not a change, but a simple following of the said thread. It is only in my own mind that such concepts as "free will" and "faith" arise - they are but illusions - electro-chemical jesting in my squishy soft lump of fat called the brain. Thank you for you reply, Galadriel! ![]() ![]()
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Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,512
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(Saying that, though, I can understand where the opinion that Turin's life was his own fault comes from, even if I don't entirely agree.) Iluvatar "cursed him" - no. Having created what there was to be created, he kind of set back and watched from afar. The only time he interfered with the ways of the world was when the Valar - his "secretaries" - all called to him for help with the upstart Numenorians. That intervention was preceded by an undermining of the good of the world by the hopelessly corrupt(ed by Sauron) and unconvincible nation, and the plea of the Valar who felt this "heresy" to be beyond their scope of work. Curse Turin? For what? His pride? But is that really enough to make his life - and the life of those around him - a drawn-out torture? Would Iluvatar really a) intervene in the first place, and b) still have suffering follow Turin around wherever he goes? If he wants to teach Turin a lesson and is providing opportunities for repentance - ok, but what lesson was he teaching to Beleg and Gwindor and Finduilas and Brandir and so many unnamed others? No, I cannot accept that Turin's misfortunes were a result of Eru's approval, much less his decision. The other big issue I have with that is related to the Catholic influence on the Eru/Valar roles. One thing that really bothers me in real life is when theological texts or articles or the like portray a monotheistic God as essentially a policeman with a beating stick, handing out rewards and punishments. I feel like if you believe in God, whatever the specifics of this God, it is not because he threatens you with eternal punishment if you don't and with great rewards if you do; it is for greater reasons. Same applies to Eru. I can't see him going, "Turin? Too proud. Assign punishment of magnitude 9 on the Richter scale. Tuor is much nicer, though, I think I'll give him some candy." That's just fundamentally wrong. Quote:
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*** And on the topic of fate, free will, and God, I'm wondering if you by any chance are familiar with Spinoza? I can't boast to be familiar with many philosophers, but from among those that I've encountered this guy is my hero. I don't align with him 100%, but his conceptions align with my own in many cases. And at any rate, from a historical point of view I think he can be described as an atheist that is actually a monotheist. It's pretty cool. His description of "free" will is very similar to you described it, which is why I'm asking you about it. He says that It's an illusion born of ignorance of the causes of that decision. Once the causes are identified, though, you can see that they come out of the causes and not out of the blue, the present comes out directly from the past, and therefore there is only one possible way things could end up and history could flow. (And the flip side of that is utter skepticism in any causality, that connections between "cause" and "effect" exist only in our minds and patterns of nature could just be a repeated coincidence. I don't think that's a very viable way of thinking, but it is fun to employ it to sneer at science. Water boils on the stove because it is heated? Oh please. ![]() Anyways, it seems to me like we actually hold more similar real life views than I thought originally, and on this thread disagree more about Eru's role in Arda's metaphysics than Turin's actual story. I love philosophical debates, and I'm really enjoying our discussion. I can't pass up a chance to talk about Turin and metaphysics at once (and possibly convert more people to "Spinoza-ism")! Thanks for making and carrying on this thread, and I hope I don't scare away other people with my rants. ![]()
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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