Unfair criticism of ROP Eldar.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Regarding the short hair of the Eldar portrayed in RoP, I was reading the expanded version of the tale of Turin's stay in Doriath and note Saeros' comments when Turin returned from the north marches. Saeros teased Turin for his long, unkempt hair and encouraged him to avoid having his hair cover his ears. This implies that some Elves had short hair.

I thought this was an interesting catch, and looked at the passage today to refresh my memory. However, upon reading the actual source in COH, I have to argue against such a definitive conclusion. I'll quote the text here for reference:

Thus three years passed, and in that time Turin came seldom to Thingol's halls; and he cared no longer for his looks or his attire, but his hair was unkempt, and his mail covered with a grey cloak stained with the weather. But it chanced in the third summer after Turin's departure, when he was twenty years old, that desiring rest and needing smithwork for the repair of his arms he came unlooked for to Menegroth, and went one evening into the hall. Thingol was not there, for he was abroad in the greenwood with Melian, as was his delight at times in the high summer. Turin took a seat without heed, for he was wayworn, and filled with thought; and by ill-luck he set himself at a board among the elders of the realm, and in that place where Saeros was accustomed to sit.

Saeros, entering late, was angered, believing that Turin had done this in pride, and with intent to affront him; and his anger was not lessened to find that Turin was not rebuked by those that sat there, but was welcomed as one worthy to sit among them.

For a while therefore Saeros feigned to be of like mind, and took another seat, facing Turin across the board.

'Seldom does the march-warden favour us with his company,' he said; 'and I gladly yield my accustomed seat for the chance of speech with him.'

But Turin, who was in converse with Mablung the Hunter, did not rise, and said only a curt 'I thank you'.

Saeros then plied him with questions, concerning the news from the borders, and his deeds in the wild; but though his words seemed fair, the mockery in his voice could not be mistaken. Then Turin became weary, and he looked about him, and knew the
bitterness of exile; and for all the light and laughter of the Elven-halls his thought turned to Beleg and their life in the woods, and thence far away, to Morwen in Dor-lomin in the house of his father; and he frowned, because of the darkness of his thoughts, and made no answer to Saeros. At this, believing the frown aimed at himself, Saeros restrained his anger no longer; and he took out a golden comb, and cast it on the board before Turin, crying: 'Doubtless, Man of Hithlum, you came in haste to this table, and may be excused your ragged cloak; but there is no need to leave your head untended as a thicket of brambles. And maybe if your ears were uncovered you would heed better what is said to you.'

Turin said nothing, but turned his eyes upon Saeros, and there was a glint in their darkness. But Saeros did not heed the warning, and returned the gaze with scorn, saying for all to hear: 'If the Men of Hithlum are so wild and fell, of what sort are the women of that land? Do they run like the deer clad only in their hair?'

It is possible that Saeros means that Turin's hair is too long, and the standard of a good hairstyle is short-cropped hair. However, I think that an equally likely read is that Saeros takes issue not with the length itself as with the untidiness - long hair can be jagged or trimmed, can be messy and flying in all directions or combed neatly, kept out of the face by combing or with braids or various devices. The flip side to this is that it can still very easily fall over the ears - but then again, Saeros's jibe is at his overall state of unkeptness, and the ears comment can be interpreted in the same spirit - him exaggerating any trait to show his scorn. I think both are valid interpretations, but it's not a slam dunk. Personally, I imagine Turin's hair to be kinda like Movie!Aragorn's, which actually makes it shorter (but messier) than what I imagine most Elves to have.


This is actually an interesting book foray - what do the texts say about male hairstyles; I distinctly recall that some wore braids - so at least some had longer hair. But when it comes to RoP, I feel like the hairstyles are the least of the show's problems.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

It is possible that Saeros means that Turin's hair is too long, and the standard of a good hairstyle is short-cropped hair. However, I think that an equally likely read is that Saeros takes issue not with the length itself as with the untidiness - long hair can be jagged or trimmed, can be messy and flying in all directions or combed neatly, kept out of the face by combing or with braids or various devices. The flip side to this is that it can still very easily fall over the ears - but then again, Saeros's jibe is at his overall state of unkeptness, and the ears comment can be interpreted in the same spirit - him exaggerating any trait to show his scorn. I think both are valid interpretations, but it's not a slam dunk. Personally, I imagine Turin's hair to be kinda like Movie!Aragorn's, which actually makes it shorter (but messier) than what I imagine most Elves to have.

He does immediately go on to imagine the women of Hithlum going about "like the deer clad only in their hair", which - aside from not being likely to make him many friends among the friends and family of Luthien the Nightingale - suggests that "hair long enough to act as a cloak" is at least unusual.

NoME has a whole chapter called "Hair", but it's half a page long. It says that "Ingwe had curling golden hair. Finwe (and Miriel) had long dark hair, so had Feanor and all the Noldor, save by intermarriage..." Again, there's ambiguity: a literal reading implies that long hair is a genetic trait, and full-blooded Noldor were literally incapable of cutting theirs. More likely is that "and all the Noldor" refers to the colour, not the length.

Even taken literally, I think the only RoP character who would violate this is Celebrimbor, assuming he is actually Noldorin (remember that Tolkien also wrote of him as Gondolindrim, and there's even a late text making him a Teler of Aman!). Elrond is only fractionally Noldor, Finrod only a quarter, Arondir is presumptively Sindar/Nandor, and Galadriel and Gil-Galad have long hair anyway.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Hui

He does immediately go on to imagine the women of Hithlum going about "like the deer clad only in their hair", which - aside from not being likely to make him many friends among the friends and family of Luthien the Nightingale - suggests that "hair long enough to act as a cloak" is at least unusual.

But hair long enough to act as a cloak is unusual even for women, if you think about it. Consider the picture of BlanchetteGaladriel earlier in this thread - her hair there is long by any standards, and yet it wouldn't even cover her waist. So is Saeros implying that "if men's hair is so long, how long must a woman's be?" - or, is what he actually saying, "you are all wild and unkept, how high can we raise the bar on wildness?". "Clad only in hair" doesn't mean that the hair is actually long enough to serve as a garment, but just there to underscore that there is no other garment (and relate this to the previous insults). That's the whole point. He's not saying their dress is unusual, he is calling them utterly uncivilized and lacking dress. It's like the old joke about people wearing Adam and Eve's costumes. Besides, long hair for women isgenerally considered a good attribute. Honestly, I never read it to imply hair length, and while I see that as an interpretation for the taunts directed at Turin's person, I don't see that here at all.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But hair long enough to act as a cloak is unusual even for women, if you think about it. Consider the picture of BlanchetteGaladriel earlier in this thread - her hair there is long by any standards, and yet it wouldn't even cover her waist. So is Saeros implying that "if men's hair is so long, how long must a woman's be?" - or, is what he actually saying, "you are all wild and unkept, how high can we raise the bar on wildness?". "Clad only in hair" doesn't mean that the hair is actually long enough to serve as a garment, but just there to underscore that there is no other garment (and relate this to the previous insults). That's the whole point. He's not saying their dress is unusual, he is calling them utterly uncivilized and lacking dress. It's like the old joke about people wearing Adam and Eve's costumes. Besides, long hair for women isgenerally considered a good attribute. Honestly, I never read it to imply hair length, and while I see that as an interpretation for the taunts directed at Turin's person, I don't see that here at all.

I kind of agree that he's mostly on about looking a mess, but the fact that he has two back to back comments about long hair says something about his attitudes towards it. I just can't tell whether it's "your hair is too long" or "all hair is long, you should take care of it."

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It may be that Elvish grooming standards included long hair combed behind or around the ears, like Alan Lee portrayed it (and thus PJ's movies). Turin's here was more like Tom Hanks' in Castaway. Note that Saeros casts a comb on the table., not a pair of shears

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It may be that Elvish grooming standards included long hair combed behind or around the ears, like Alan Lee portrayed it (and thus PJ's movies). Turin's here was more like Tom Hanks' in Castaway. Note that Saeros casts a comb on the table., not a pair of shears

This was my thought exactly - that if anything, the meaning was "brush/braid/clip your hair back". Then, ever my own devil's advocate, I thought that perhaps the reason that he threw a comb and not scissors was that he happened to have a comb, and did not happen to have a pair of scissors on him at that time. Who is to say that if a pair happened to be lying at hand he wouldn't have tossed that too, or even instead? And then I wondered why he was carrying a comb on him in the first place. And though it was first a humorous thought, it's actually a serious question: why would a courtier carry a comb around in the king's dining chamber, or anywhere in the palace, really? Was there any precedent to medieval figures of state carrying tools for personal grooming in their pockets or purses, like girls carry lipstick? Would he even have a purse on his person? Perhaps that is the more enlightening detail in terms of the customs of Doriathrin Eldar. Perhaps it was the norm to have basic toiletries always on hand, even when dining in the king's hall. Seriously, how does the guy just have a spare comb on him?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

This was my thought exactly - that if anything, the meaning was "brush/braid/clip your hair back". Then, ever my own devil's advocate, I thought that perhaps the reason that he threw a comb and not scissors was that he happened to have a comb, and did not happen to have a pair of scissors on him at that time. Who is to say that if a pair happened to be lying at hand he wouldn't have tossed that too, or even instead? And then I wondered why he was carrying a comb on him in the first place. And though it was first a humorous thought, it's actually a serious question: why would a courtier carry a comb around in the king's dining chamber, or anywhere in the palace, really? Was there any precedent to medieval figures of state carrying tools for personal grooming in their pockets or purses, like girls carry lipstick? Would he even have a purse on his person? Perhaps that is the more enlightening detail in terms of the customs of Doriathrin Eldar. Perhaps it was the norm to have basic toiletries always on hand, even when dining in the king's hall. Seriously, how does the guy just have a spare comb on him?

Well, maybe I'm old-school, but back in my day American men nearly always carried a pocket comb (remember Fonzie?)

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

( . . .) However, I think that an equally likely read is that Saeros takes issue not with the length itself as with the untidiness - long hair can be jagged or trimmed, can be messy and flying in all directions or combed neatly, kept out of the face by combing or with braids or various devices. The flip side to this is that it can still very easily fall over the ears - but then again, Saeros's jibe is at his overall state of unkeptness, and the ears comment can be interpreted in the same spirit - him exaggerating any trait to show his scorn. I think both are valid interpretations, but it's not a slam dunk. ( . . .)

That's how I read this passage: we have the comb plus "untended as a thicket of brambles."

A thicket of brambles gives me an image of a wild, matted thickness that's difficult to pass through -- and thus the "jibe" being that even sound cannot easily penetrate Turin's hair: "And maybe if your ears were uncovered you would heed better what is said to you."

In short, it's not about length to me, but brambleness