Unfair criticism of ROP Eldar. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

William Cloud Hicklin · 11-02-2022, 09:21 AM

It may be that Elvish grooming standards included long hair combed behind or around the ears, like Alan Lee portrayed it (and thus PJ's movies). Turin's here was more like Tom Hanks' in Castaway. Note that Saeros casts a comb on the table., not a pair of shears

Galadriel55 · 11-02-2022, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It may be that Elvish grooming standards included long hair combed behind or around the ears, like Alan Lee portrayed it (and thus PJ's movies). Turin's here was more like Tom Hanks' in Castaway. Note that Saeros casts a comb on the table., not a pair of shears

This was my thought exactly - that if anything, the meaning was "brush/braid/clip your hair back". Then, ever my own devil's advocate, I thought that perhaps the reason that he threw a comb and not scissors was that he happened to have a comb, and did not happen to have a pair of scissors on him at that time. Who is to say that if a pair happened to be lying at hand he wouldn't have tossed that too, or even instead? And then I wondered why he was carrying a comb on him in the first place. And though it was first a humorous thought, it's actually a serious question: why would a courtier carry a comb around in the king's dining chamber, or anywhere in the palace, really? Was there any precedent to medieval figures of state carrying tools for personal grooming in their pockets or purses, like girls carry lipstick? Would he even have a purse on his person? Perhaps that is the more enlightening detail in terms of the customs of Doriathrin Eldar. Perhaps it was the norm to have basic toiletries always on hand, even when dining in the king's hall. Seriously, how does the guy just have a spare comb on him?

William Cloud Hicklin · 11-04-2022, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

This was my thought exactly - that if anything, the meaning was "brush/braid/clip your hair back". Then, ever my own devil's advocate, I thought that perhaps the reason that he threw a comb and not scissors was that he happened to have a comb, and did not happen to have a pair of scissors on him at that time. Who is to say that if a pair happened to be lying at hand he wouldn't have tossed that too, or even instead? And then I wondered why he was carrying a comb on him in the first place. And though it was first a humorous thought, it's actually a serious question: why would a courtier carry a comb around in the king's dining chamber, or anywhere in the palace, really? Was there any precedent to medieval figures of state carrying tools for personal grooming in their pockets or purses, like girls carry lipstick? Would he even have a purse on his person? Perhaps that is the more enlightening detail in terms of the customs of Doriathrin Eldar. Perhaps it was the norm to have basic toiletries always on hand, even when dining in the king's hall. Seriously, how does the guy just have a spare comb on him?

Well, maybe I'm old-school, but back in my day American men nearly always carried a pocket comb (remember Fonzie?)

Formendacil · 11-04-2022, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, maybe I'm old-school, but back in my day American men nearly always carried a pocket comb (remember Fonzie?)

I'm not quite old enough to say in "my" day--nor am I American--but during my childhood in the 90s, I definitely remember my grandfather having a comb in his pocket at all times. And as someone with rather useless hair that I put nothing into, I could probably do with the habit myself--though that pocket space has been ceded to the cellphone, I fear.

Still, cellular service in Menegroth is notoriously bad, so perhaps Saeros had the pocket space.

Morthoron · 11-04-2022, 05:09 PM

Given the fan-fiction propounded in ROP, the combs are evidently cast Mithril, to mantain Elvish hirsute body and bounce.

Galadriel55 · 11-04-2022, 07:52 PM

Mithril or otherwise, are we concluding that it was routine practice for Elves to fix up their hair a few times a day? For whatever reason the idea seems to tickle me. I'm just envisioning Saeros touching up the cowlicks with a bronze mirror in the lavatory...

ETA: as an unofficial "poll of opinions", I googled Saeros fan art. The vast majority portrays him with long hair, a couple pictures have him with shoulder length-ish hair. In every case his hair is at least as long as Turin's, and usually longer. Oh the irony.

Tar Elenion · 11-08-2022, 06:58 PM

Regarding Elven Hair:

"All the Eldar had beautiful hair (and were especially attracted by hair of exceptional loveliness), but the Noldor were not specially remarkable in this respect, and there is no reference to Finwe as having had hair of exceptional length, abundance, or beauty beyond the measure of his people."
PoMe, Shibboleth of Feanor

In a discussion of the meaning of Finwe's name (fin = hair in this iteration), specifically references Finwe's hair as not exceptionally more long or abundant than the hair of the other Eldar (who all had beautiful hair).

"But most it was their wont to sail in their swift ships upon the waters of the Bay of Elvenhome, or to walk in the waves upon the shore with their long hair gleaming like foam in the light beyond the hill."
Morgoth's Ring, Later Quenta Simarillion 1
The Teleri (who are Eldar) had long hair.

"Finwe (and Miriel) had long dark hair, so had Feanor and all the Noldor, save by intermarriage..."
NoMe, Hair
The Noldor (who are Eldar) had long hair.

"In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe. Indeed they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes; for the eyes of all the Elves that had dwelt in Aman impressed those of Middle-earth by their piercing brightness. For which reason the Sindar often called them Lachend, pl. Lechind ‘flame-eyed’."
WotJ, Quendi and Eldar
The Sindar, who are Teleri (who have long hair) in origin, look like the Noldor, who have long hair.

"Their gleaming hair was twined with flowers; green and white gems glinted on their collars and their belts; and their faces and their songs were filled with mirth. Loud and clear and fair were those songs, and out stepped Thorin into their midst."
The Hobbit, Flies and Spiders
The Silvan Elves, who are Teleri (long hair) in origin, have hair long enough to twine flowers into.

The Song of Aelfwine
"There blowing free unbraided hair
is meshed with beams of Moon and Sun,
And twined within those tresses fair
a gold and silver sheen is spun,
As fleet and white the feet go bare,
and lissom limbs in dances run,
Shimmering in the shining air:
such loveliness to look upon
No mortal man hath ever won,
though foam upon the furthest sea
He dared, or sought behind the Sun
for winds unearthly flowing free.
O! Shore beyond the Shadowy Sea!
O! Land where still the Edhil are!"
Lost Road, FNII
Long hair for Elves implied by them unbraiding it and letting it blow freely in the wind.

11-02-2022, 09:21 AM	#1
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	It may be that Elvish grooming standards included long hair combed behind or around the ears, like Alan Lee portrayed it (and thus PJ's movies). Turin's here was more like Tom Hanks' in Castaway. Note that Saeros casts a comb on the table., not a pair of shears __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

11-04-2022, 05:09 PM	#5
Morthoron Curmudgeonly Wordwraith Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits Posts: 2,515	Given the fan-fiction propounded in ROP, the combs are evidently cast Mithril, to mantain Elvish hirsute body and bounce. __________________ And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.

11-04-2022, 07:52 PM	#6
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,525	Mithril or otherwise, are we concluding that it was routine practice for Elves to fix up their hair a few times a day? For whatever reason the idea seems to tickle me. I'm just envisioning Saeros touching up the cowlicks with a bronze mirror in the lavatory... ETA: as an unofficial "poll of opinions", I googled Saeros fan art. The vast majority portrays him with long hair, a couple pictures have him with shoulder length-ish hair. In every case his hair is at least as long as Turin's, and usually longer. Oh the irony. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Galadriel55; 11-04-2022 at 07:59 PM.

11-08-2022, 06:58 PM	#7
Tar Elenion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 369	Regarding Elven Hair: "All the Eldar had beautiful hair (and were especially attracted by hair of exceptional loveliness), but the Noldor were not specially remarkable in this respect, and there is no reference to Finwe as having had hair of exceptional length, abundance, or beauty beyond the measure of his people." PoMe, Shibboleth of Feanor In a discussion of the meaning of Finwe's name (fin = hair in this iteration), specifically references Finwe's hair as not exceptionally more long or abundant than the hair of the other Eldar (who all had beautiful hair). "But most it was their wont to sail in their swift ships upon the waters of the Bay of Elvenhome, or to walk in the waves upon the shore with their long hair gleaming like foam in the light beyond the hill." Morgoth's Ring, Later Quenta Simarillion 1 The Teleri (who are Eldar) had long hair. "Finwe (and Miriel) had long dark hair, so had Feanor and all the Noldor, save by intermarriage..." NoMe, Hair The Noldor (who are Eldar) had long hair. "In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe. Indeed they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes; for the eyes of all the Elves that had dwelt in Aman impressed those of Middle-earth by their piercing brightness. For which reason the Sindar often called them Lachend, pl. Lechind ‘flame-eyed’." WotJ, Quendi and Eldar The Sindar, who are Teleri (who have long hair) in origin, look like the Noldor, who have long hair. "Their gleaming hair was twined with flowers; green and white gems glinted on their collars and their belts; and their faces and their songs were filled with mirth. Loud and clear and fair were those songs, and out stepped Thorin into their midst." The Hobbit, Flies and Spiders The Silvan Elves, who are Teleri (long hair) in origin, have hair long enough to twine flowers into. The Song of Aelfwine "There blowing free unbraided hair is meshed with beams of Moon and Sun, And twined within those tresses fair a gold and silver sheen is spun, As fleet and white the feet go bare, and lissom limbs in dances run, Shimmering in the shining air: such loveliness to look upon No mortal man hath ever won, though foam upon the furthest sea He dared, or sought behind the Sun for winds unearthly flowing free. O! Shore beyond the Shadowy Sea! O! Land where still the Edhil are!" Lost Road, FNII Long hair for Elves implied by them unbraiding it and letting it blow freely in the wind. __________________ Tar-Elenion