New Tolkien book coming!

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Interesting, given that by this time he had long determined that the Nandor were indeed Eldar.

But not High Elves, surely. I thought that was only the Valinoreans and Sindar? Precisely who is Eldar depends on who is speaking...

hS

[Galin]

Perhaps Tolkien had recently read Appendix F concerning what Eldar meant

Even Christopher Tolkien seems to have been paying Appendix F its due when compiling his "List Of Names In The Tale Of The Children Of Húrin":

"Eldar The Elves of the Great Journey out of the East to Beleriand."

Pretty much agrees with Tolkien's published -- never revised -- Eldar: Elves of the Great Journey Over Sea > plus the Sindar "only" -- or "West-Elves" (compare "to Beleriand").

Of course in his introduction to COH, Christopher Tolkien makes the distinction between Eldar and Avari, where his father's distinction in the Appendix was between West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves, in any case. But even so, The Children of Húrin entry for Eldar is, for me, interestingly different from the constructed Silmarillion entry, and the chart (The Sundering Of The Elves), which reflect posthumously published ideas.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

But not High Elves, surely. I thought that was only the Valinoreans and Sindar? Precisely who is Eldar depends on who is speaking...

hS

Except that in this very quote he wrote "the High Elves, the Eldar." Which if anything is a new use of "High Elves," which in all other cases I can think of is restricted to the Calaquendi, the "High Elves of the West" (and, in Middle-earth, meaning the exiled Noldor).

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Except that in this very quote he wrote "the High Elves, the Eldar." Which if anything is a new use of "High Elves," which in all other cases I can think of is restricted to the Calaquendi, the "High Elves of the West" (and, in Middle-earth, meaning the exiled Noldor).

What the heck am I thinking of, then?? I know there's SOME term that means Caliquendi+Sindar, but I can't for the life of me remember what if it's not either High Elves or Eldar.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

A puzzle.

In another late text, Of Dwarves and Men, Tolkien contrasts the "High Eldar" of Valinor with the Eldar of Middle-earth; I'm not sure that that distinction appears elsewhere. It also doesn't tell us whether "ordinary lunchpail proletarian Eldar" included the Nandor or not.

Going back to the very beginning, in the Lost Tales, it was easy: Eldar = Elves of Valinor. The rest were all Ilkorindi, "not of Kor." Even the Noldoli/Gnomes dropped out of the Eldar when they came back, to become a third "tribe."

[Galin]

In their Reader's Companion to The Lord of the Rings, Hammond and Scull noted:

"Elsewhere Tolkien equates Eldar with the High Elves ( . . . ) or defines the term more narrowly as "the West-elves" in contrast to the "East-elves", . . .).

There seems to be two definitions of High Elf: one (and the one seemingly more frequently employed by Tolkien) is equivalent to Tareldar -- and with respect to Middle-earth at least, the Tareldar are the returned Noldor.

Another use of the term "High Elves" seems to be basically equivalent to Eldar however, and thus includes the Sindar
-- at least arguably, given:

"In the beginning of this age many of the High Elves still remained. Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dur many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established
. . ."

Appendix B, Tale of Years

When Tolkien originally wrote the passage with Gildor, Frodo knew these were "High Elves" seemingly due to the name Elbereth. Yet the Sindar use this name, and the name is Sindarin. And if I read the signs rightly, when Tolkien wrote this passage the name Elbereth was "Noldorin" not Sindarin > in any case, after Tolkien changed the linguistic scenario we still have Frodo saying these are High Elves, as if Sindarin Elbereth is a sign of this. Some might say Tolkien forgot to revise Frodo's remark, but in my opinion it still works, given the suggestion from Appendix B.

Of course Gildor and Company turn out to be Exiles anyway, but Frodo's implication with respect to the name Elbereth need not be wrong.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

When Tolkien originally wrote the passage with Gildor, Frodo knew these were "High Elves" seemingly due to the name Elbereth. Yet the Sindar use this name, and the name is Sindarin. And if I read the signs rightly, when Tolkien wrote this passage the name Elbereth was "Noldorin" not Sindarin > in any case, after Tolkien changed the linguistic scenario we still have Frodo saying these are High Elves, as if Sindarin Elbereth is a sign of this. Some might say Tolkien forgot to revise Frodo's remark, but in my opinion it still works, given the suggestion from Appendix B.

Of course Gildor and Company turn out to be Exiles anyway, but Frodo's implication with respect to the name Elbereth need not be wrong.

Yes, it all still works. Tolkien had covered most of his bases with Thingol's Edict and the Noldor adopting Sindarin for everyday speech. The invocation of Varda Tintalle, by any name, still marks them out as Tareldar even before Gildor says so.

But it doesn't help us in figuring out how to class the Nandor.

[Galin]

The Nandor dilemma as I see it, with respect to them being Eldar or not.

According to Appendix F, most of the Elves of Lorien and Mirkwood were East-elves, whose languages were not-Eldarin. And we can hardly say that JRRT forgot this section entirely for the revised edition, as he added a footnote to try to
re-characterize this very thing about the speech of the Elves of Lorien specifically . . . that is, "now" these Elves speak an Eldarin tongue (Sindarin), but with an accent.

I'm not sure how well this holds up with what is said in the Lorien chapters though. Frodo was not the only one that could be misled by an accent. "They had little speech with any of the Elven-folk; for few of these spoke any but their own silvan tongue." "Silvan tongue" aside, did their speech mislead Aragorn and Boromir too? And often "they" (the companions) heard nearby Elvish voices singing, but if Legolas was with the Company "he would not interpret the songs for them"

Again, if these Elves were speaking Sindarin with an accent, is the suggestion, at least, that even Aragorn was not getting it? Or Boromir?

Possible.

Or are we now supposed to imagine that some in Lorien spoke a Silvan Tongue, others Sindarin with an accent?

Or . . . just call it Silvan Elvish


Anyway, in some posthumously published texts, and thus in the constructed Silmarillion, the Nandor are Eldarin, but this contradicts Appendix F (see below), and given CJRT's later entry in COH (at least one of the entries!) he seems to want to "return" to a definition more in line with what his father actually published. But instead of using that "five letter word" (canon), I'll put it this way, similar to what was done with the Lost Tales: in the tales Tolkien himself published it was easy:

Eldar = West Elves = Elves who passed Over Sea plus the Sindar only. And the languages of The East Elves (most of the Elven Folk of Mirkwood and Lorien) were not Eldarin -- makes sense, they weren't Eldar.


Less easy perhaps (second edition), as noted, JRRT adds that Sindarin was spoken in Lorien at least, but with an accent: "And this "accent" and his own limited acquaintance with Sindarin misled Frodo." Cough. Okay. But the idea still remains that these East-elves are not Eldar, even if they learned an Eldarin tongue.

[Huinesoron]

Help, someone can't count.

In NoME 1.XIII, "Key Dates", Text 1 is Tolkien's final timeline of the Awakening to the March. It matches up nicely with his final Generational Scheme (1.XVII, scheme 7), so we can be confident it's actually final.

Tolkien gives the date of the Awakening as VY 850/1 - ie, the first sun-year of the 850th Valian Year, a Valian Year being 144 sun-year. He also gives the date as First Age 1. Fine.

The Finding of the elves is also fixed. It takes place in the last sun-year of 864 (ie, 864/144), with events after this all being in 865. And again, he gives a First Age date: 2016.

Except, ummm. 2016 = 144 x 14, so comes 14 VY after FA1. One VY after 850/1 is 851/1; two is 852/1; you can follow the pattern up, and 2016 = 864/1, not 864/144 or even 865/1.

Hostetter usually notes Tolkien's mathematical errors, but let's this one pass silently. Tolkien continues to use 864/144 as the date of the Finding, with all later dates based on this - this definitely isn't a printing error. So I have to wonder if I'm the one who's wrong, messing up either my maths or my reading.

Help help, who can't count: Huinesoron off the Internet, or JRR Tolkien and one of his foremost scholars?

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

All his life, Tolkien was prone to making "fencepost errors" or what IT types call "off-by-one" errors. They plagued his work on the Lord of the Rings' chronology. This is another example.