New Tolkien book coming!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Nicotiana has flowering variants which are common garden plants, and it is said that it grew wild in Gondor, having been brought from Numenor for its fragrant flowers (it is not any sort of nightshade)

As for taters: there is however a strong hint in the Narn that potatoes were native to M-E, since it seems that that's what Mim's "earth-bread" was.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Nicotiana has flowering variants which are common garden plants, and it is said that it grew wild in Gondor, having been brought from Numenor for its fragrant flowers (it is not any sort of nightshade)

It is, of course - genus Nicotiana is in the family Solanaceae, AKA the nightshades. It isn't a Solanum or Atropa, though. But until Hostetter brings out the long lost Tolkien Botanical Collection, I don't suppose it really matters. ^_^

Sticking with the plants... NoME "Of the Lands and Beasts of Numenor" describes the trees of both Beleriand (hornbeam, small maple, flowering chestnut) and Numenor (wych-elm, holm-oak, tall maple, sweet chestnut, walnut). Was Tolkien just naming random trees, or are these geographically varied in their natural state?

hS

[Huinesoron]

NOME 3.II "The Primal Impulse" is something of a delight. As a chemist I'm delighted to see Tolkien's thoughts on, essentially, the Big Bang and the philosophy of matter, but as always, the best stuff is in the trivia:

- The Valar refuse to admit that Eru has added anything to the world other than the Children, but the Eldar disagree. "Some of these things that appear suddenly in History and [?continue] then in obedience to Eä (or soon cease to be [?seen]) may indeed be due directly to Eru. (These things are called the signs of the Finger of Eru.)"

- In a discussion of matings between Elves and Men: "this has rarely been done, and as for the High Elves, the Eldar, only twice. In Middle-earth, unless tales be now [? [I wonder if this is 'lost']] thrice: Beren/Luthien, Idril/Tuor, Ancestors of Imrahil. " So yes, that's direct confirmation that there are probably more Half-Elves outside the North-West!

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Interesting, given that by this time he had long determined that the Nandor were indeed Eldar.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Interesting, given that by this time he had long determined that the Nandor were indeed Eldar.

But not High Elves, surely. I thought that was only the Valinoreans and Sindar? Precisely who is Eldar depends on who is speaking...

hS

[Galin]

Perhaps Tolkien had recently read Appendix F concerning what Eldar meant

Even Christopher Tolkien seems to have been paying Appendix F its due when compiling his "List Of Names In The Tale Of The Children Of Húrin":

"Eldar The Elves of the Great Journey out of the East to Beleriand."

Pretty much agrees with Tolkien's published -- never revised -- Eldar: Elves of the Great Journey Over Sea > plus the Sindar "only" -- or "West-Elves" (compare "to Beleriand").

Of course in his introduction to COH, Christopher Tolkien makes the distinction between Eldar and Avari, where his father's distinction in the Appendix was between West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves, in any case. But even so, The Children of Húrin entry for Eldar is, for me, interestingly different from the constructed Silmarillion entry, and the chart (The Sundering Of The Elves), which reflect posthumously published ideas.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

But not High Elves, surely. I thought that was only the Valinoreans and Sindar? Precisely who is Eldar depends on who is speaking...

hS

Except that in this very quote he wrote "the High Elves, the Eldar." Which if anything is a new use of "High Elves," which in all other cases I can think of is restricted to the Calaquendi, the "High Elves of the West" (and, in Middle-earth, meaning the exiled Noldor).

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Except that in this very quote he wrote "the High Elves, the Eldar." Which if anything is a new use of "High Elves," which in all other cases I can think of is restricted to the Calaquendi, the "High Elves of the West" (and, in Middle-earth, meaning the exiled Noldor).

What the heck am I thinking of, then?? I know there's SOME term that means Caliquendi+Sindar, but I can't for the life of me remember what if it's not either High Elves or Eldar.

hS

[Galin]

In their Reader's Companion to The Lord of the Rings, Hammond and Scull noted:

"Elsewhere Tolkien equates Eldar with the High Elves ( . . . ) or defines the term more narrowly as "the West-elves" in contrast to the "East-elves", . . .).

There seems to be two definitions of High Elf: one (and the one seemingly more frequently employed by Tolkien) is equivalent to Tareldar -- and with respect to Middle-earth at least, the Tareldar are the returned Noldor.

Another use of the term "High Elves" seems to be basically equivalent to Eldar however, and thus includes the Sindar
-- at least arguably, given:

"In the beginning of this age many of the High Elves still remained. Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dur many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established
. . ."

Appendix B, Tale of Years

When Tolkien originally wrote the passage with Gildor, Frodo knew these were "High Elves" seemingly due to the name Elbereth. Yet the Sindar use this name, and the name is Sindarin. And if I read the signs rightly, when Tolkien wrote this passage the name Elbereth was "Noldorin" not Sindarin > in any case, after Tolkien changed the linguistic scenario we still have Frodo saying these are High Elves, as if Sindarin Elbereth is a sign of this. Some might say Tolkien forgot to revise Frodo's remark, but in my opinion it still works, given the suggestion from Appendix B.

Of course Gildor and Company turn out to be Exiles anyway, but Frodo's implication with respect to the name Elbereth need not be wrong.